Bolus dosing

[Reefahholic]

In Germany, Tropic Marin is one of the few examples. Hans-Werner has even published the formula for its trace elements, i.e. you know exactly which trace element is contained and in what quantity.

That wasn’t my experience with their carbon dosing line. Take NP-Bacto-Balance for example. I had to dig to find that traces were in that product. The ratio definitely wasn’t listed. Shouldn’t that information be located under the actual “product description” or “ingredient’s?” Yet, at the very bottom of the page hidden away is where they list it under “other product recommendations.” Really…that is a recommendation.? That’s not very transparent. Same thing with Plus-NP.

 

[Reefahholic]

Triton is 10,000 KH per liter as a set. However, the 3a and 3b bottles are both KH. Each is 5000 KH/L.

Are you taking about Core 7. Did they change it.?

It was:

19,500 dKH or 6,964meq/L (Both 3A & 3B)
9,750 dKH or 3,482meq/L (3A only)
9,750 dKH or 3,482meq/L (3B only)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That wasn’t my experience with their carbon dosing line. Take NP-Bacto-Balance for example. I had to dig to find that traces were in that product. The ratio definitely wasn’t listed. Shouldn’t that information be located under the actual “product description” or “ingredient’s?” Yet, at the very bottom of the page hidden away is where they list it under “other product recommendations.” Really…that is a recommendation.? That’s not very transparent. Same thing with Plus-NP.

NP bactobalance is a product I'd want to know what it was. I understand why they may choose to not reveal its composition, but that's also a reason why I would not use it.

 

[RandomReefer420]

I dosee 80ml for this stuff for .75dkh gain in a day as instructed in the morning at 8:30am and light on on blast at 9am

1- DKH does stay stable in 24h mark for sure. I tested dkh at peak photoperiod and it stayed at around 8.35dkh after 24h period.
Tested dkh right after the bolus dose and it measured 8.7dkh for few days I tested it.

About half the dKH shows up immediately after dosing ? That's what Fauna said would happen but isn't what should happen.

I'm really curious if the PH gets better, your graph sort of looks like the "battery", as Fauna calls it is running out early.

Thanks for taking the time to post your results, looks like there is a repeatable result. Did you get the same effect when you initially used the AF balling too ?

 

[Reefahholic]

In my opinion, the bolus method is actually an interesting and creative new way of dosing.

Yes, very interesting to dump the entire daily Alk demand in one dose, spike the system, and then ramp the light to 100% in 10 minutes. Super creative!

 

[RandomReefer420]

Yes, very interesting to dump the entire daily Alk demand in one dose, spike the system, and then ramp the light to 100% in 10 minutes. Super creative!

That isn't what the tests seem to show though is it ? There's no massive spike, just a consistent KH value.

 

[Reefahholic]

Can we just cut through the chase and see the pre/post growth progression shots of this method and what it can do. This was heavily tested for two years in a farm setting correct?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That isn't what the tests seem to show though is it ? There's no massive spike, just a consistent KH value.

Is it?

I'm a bit unclear on what everyone is dosing, and I may have missed other data, but this is the only in tank data graph for alk that I recall seeing here, and it is not anything but a spike and a drop:

Bolus dosing

So is this a change of position from the 'every reefer knows that dosing bicarbonate does not increase pH' statement you'd made previously? Are you being sarcastic? Every reefer knows (or can test) that when first added, bicarbonate lowers pH. I tested it and published it long ago. Every...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Reefahholic]

That isn't what the tests seem to show though is it ? There's no massive spike, just a consistent KH value.

What is the potency of FM Balling Light (meq/L).?

How is there no spike when you dump 80 to 300mL of Sodium Bicarbonate in your system in one dose. What is your daily alkalinity demand? How many mL’s do you bolus?

What about the guy who has more biomass than water in the system, can he bolus his daily demand in one shot?

 

[Pod_01]

That wasn’t my experience with their carbon dosing line. Take NP-Bacto-Balance for example. I had to dig to find that traces were in that product. The ratio definitely wasn’t listed. Shouldn’t that information be located under the actual “product description” or “ingredient’s?” Yet, at the very bottom of the page hidden away is where they list it under “other product recommendations.” Really…that is a recommendation.? That’s not very transparent. Same thing with Plus-NP.

I don’t believe Tropic Marin states exact ratios but Hans has provided information when asked, like here:

The trace elements added with 1.2 g Phos-Feed are 1.4 ppb fluorine (natural concentration 1292 ppb), 0.8 ppb bromine (n. c. 67 ppm) and 1,65 ppb iodine (n. c. ca. 52 ppb). Only in iodine it is a significant contribution to the trace element supply and concentration.

He will say when he is unable to give details. I suspect that was the point.

Claude / FM on the other hand seems to be intentionally providing miss information / maybe false information this is especially obvious with the KH mix.
At this point the KH mix is mysterious powder that turns into mysterious liquid…
I still use it but once gone I may move on to less mysterious 2/3 part system.
Reefing and growing corals is mysterious enough sometimes predictability is nice.

 

[TokenReefer]

That isn't what the tests seem to show though is it ? There's no massive spike, just a consistent KH value.

Isn't this a spike? Directly from the example he chose to show in the video. He tries to play it off as this was a 'test' result and to not regard it, which has me scratching my head as to why he chose to use it in this presentation (as if he had no time to prepare)...odd to me

 

[Reefahholic]

At this point the KH mix is mysterious powder that turns into mysterious liquid…

Haha…

 

[RandomReefer420]

Is it?

I'm a bit unclear on what everyone is dosing, and I may have missed other data, but this is the only in tank data graph for alk that I recall seeing here, and it is not anything but a spike and a drop:

Bolus dosing

So is this a change of position from the 'every reefer knows that dosing bicarbonate does not increase pH' statement you'd made previously? Are you being sarcastic? Every reefer knows (or can test) that when first added, bicarbonate lowers pH. I tested it and published it long ago. Every...

www.reef2reef.com

This graph from Welsh Reefer is based on dosing 2dKH of Fauna Marin ( using the bolus method ) balling per day, it doesn't look like the above graph and the full 2 dKH isn't shown.

I'm no Reef Chemist, nor do I claim to be, but the alk curves mentioned in the HTU are also reflected on my own system - I ran my KHD to test 24 times in a day and here is the graph from that - note that I dose roughly 110ml so 2dKH into a 275ltr tank (I have much bigger sump than standard), the full 2dKH is never seen on a test which in my mind backs up what the HTU says around this matter :

 

[RandomReefer420]

Isn't this a spike? Directly from the example he chose to show in the video. He tries to play it off as this was a 'test' result and to not regard it, which has me scratching my head as to why he chose to use it in this presentation (as if he had no time to prepare)...odd to me

That's the pH, which apparently isn't stable using this system. I'm concerned with KH stability, I have only had problems when KH has swung ( in my own tank, not using bolus or fauna marin balling )

 

[RandomReefer420]

What is the potency of FM Balling Light (meq/L).?

How is there no spike when you dump 80 to 300mL of Sodium Bicarbonate in your system in one dose. What is your daily alkalinity demand? How many mL’s do you bolus?

What about the guy who has more biomass than water in the system, can he bolus his daily demand in one shot?

I don't use any Fauna Marin products, and I'm not using bolus at the moment. I'm talking about other people who have posted in this threads results.

I don't know why there isn't a measured spike, that's what is interesting. It could be measurement error but there are several people here and on the Fauna Facebook page showing similar results.

 

[ackshee]

Catching up on this thread, a lot to read.

I don't have much to offer to the discussion, but I have one question. Maybe this has already been discussed in this thread...

But, is this Bolus Dosing method by Fauna Marin designed to replicate the natural pH fluctuations of shallow ocean? See Cornwall et al. (2013). Diurnal fluctuations in seawater pH influence the response of a calcifying macroalga to ocean acidification.

"In the open ocean, pH does not vary greatly in time and space. . . By contrast, near-shore marine organisms live in a highly variable pH environment where daily pH fluctuations owing to biological activity can exceed 1 unit. These changes are often driven by primary producers increasing pH in the surrounding seawater during the day via photosynthesis, and decreasing pH at night owing to respiration."


I understand the flaws in the chemistry that have been discussed by Randy and others, but perhaps they are aiming for this type of pH swing. Not sure if it's beneficial or not, but interesting to read.

 

[Ziggy17]

it´s the greatest thing since sliced bread!

With all the inventions in human history, I’ll never understand why sliced bread was chosen as the benchmark for the greatest. A close second going to pyjamas belonging to cats followed by knees on bees. Does the whole world buy into this or just North Americans?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This graph from Welsh Reefer is based on dosing 2dKH of Fauna Marin ( using the bolus method ) balling per day, it doesn't look like the above graph and the full 2 dKH isn't shown.

Thanks. I saw his comment but could not read the graph on my computer. Looking very closely, I see he does not get a spike, but it also isn't stable. I do not know what they put into the product that could possible cause a slower alk rise, and I certainly cannot understand why some folks see a spike and others do not.

I'm, eagerly awaiting his testing of actual bicarbonate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Catching up on this thread, a lot to read.

I don't have much to offer to the discussion, but I have one question. Maybe this has already been discussed in this thread...

But, is this Bolus Dosing method by Fauna Marin designed to replicate the natural pH fluctuations of shallow ocean? See Cornwall et al. (2013). Diurnal fluctuations in seawater pH influence the response of a calcifying macroalga to ocean acidification.

"In the open ocean, pH does not vary greatly in time and space. . . By contrast, near-shore marine organisms live in a highly variable pH environment where daily pH fluctuations owing to biological activity can exceed 1 unit. These changes are often driven by primary producers increasing pH in the surrounding seawater during the day via photosynthesis, and decreasing pH at night owing to respiration."


I understand the flaws in the chemistry that have been discussed by Randy and others, but perhaps they are aiming for this type of pH swing. Not sure if it's beneficial or not, but interesting to read.

Reef tanks get that same pH swing for the same reason as the ocean rising during photosynthesis) no matter what they do.

 

[MnFish1]

They never said you need to use FM products…

They only state you need to use a bicarbonate based balling system and nothing else!! Also this is most commenly used in Europe at least the brands i know of!

Offcourse they say you CAN use FM products for this lol
Would be strange if FM starts to advertise for other brands right?????

also they are not targeting beginning reefers!!

If the only claim being made here is the advertisment from FM for there own products, I think is not totally fair because this is totally up to the reefer him self to choose what brands to use..

Also this method seems to give major improvements in health of the system!!
After years of using 2part additves

Did you read the post from Florian?

The question is does it work. A lot of people in germany tested this method and it does. You can see it by going in to german forums or just in the yt comment section of the videos from fm. not everybody uses dosing pumps. there are people that dose once a day by hand. one of the biggest public reef tanks in germany is dosing kh only once in the morning since 7 years and they have phenomal growth. its the nature museum in karlsruhe. there are many videos on yt where you can see their reef progessing. so imho its a nother discussion should it work, because it does. before attacking the idea maybee give it a chance instead of stating it shouldnt work because xyz.

A lot of people using simple methods in multiple countries do not use this system and other methods work 'fine' as well. BRS had a video years ago talking about dosing - and they were just dumping it into the tank. I don't think there is anything 'new' about this 'method' - and as of yet - haven't seen any clear benefits.