Brand New 8 gallon bio cube

[Magellan]

Does anyone know the specific rate at which nitrate decreases phosphate (not entirely sure what to name the process so forgive me)?

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a post with randy talking about it. Google his name and nitrate+phosphate ?

 

[sfin52]

I've always wondered what the best substrate for them would be, I'm a Fiji pink kindof guy but haven't tried the oolite yet. I wanted to on my last build but got worried about it blowing around everywhere

It's very fine grain. Think finer than sugar little courser than powder sugar

 

[Magellan]

I've always wondered what the best substrate for them would be, I'm a Fiji pink kindof guy but haven't tried the oolite yet. I wanted to on my last build but got worried about it blowing around everywhere

It’s what I have in my tank, if you’re talking about the really small particles. It blows around but then settles right away. It’s almost like it packs itself down, more like an ocean floor than what you typically see in most tanks. But really soft, my nassarius snails love it.

 

[living_tribunal]

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a post with randy talking about it. Google his name and nitrate+phosphate ?

Finding a lot of interesting stuff on how nitrate Andy phosphate interact with coral growth. It’s not what you’d expect.

Seems like my hunch about phosphates is correct.

 

[Magellan]

Interesting read regarding this: https://appliedecology.cals.ncsu.ed...-growth-nitrogen-impairs-but-phosphorus-aids/

It says the phosphorus needs to come from fish poops tho. Otherwise it risks skeletal integrity. Solution: a school of fish for your tank ;)

 

[Magellan]

Finding a lot of interesting stuff on how nitrate Andy phosphate interact with coral growth. It’s not what you’d expect.

Seems like my hunch about phosphates is correct.

I needs more links! Great stuff so far

 

[living_tribunal]

This blurb essentially sums up everything I’ve found and the consensus among the scientific community:

“We determined the effects of elevated phosphate on coral growth and density. Genetically distinct colonies of Acropora muricata were sub-divided and distributed among three 110-L aquaria, and exposed to phosphate levels of 0.09, 0.20, and 0.50mgL−1 for four months. Total skeletal length, living tissue length, weight, branch production, and polyp extension were measured. Linear extension and tissue growth increased under all conditions. Growth rates were highest at a phosphate concentration of 0.50mgL−1. Weight increased through time, graded from low to high with phosphate concentration. Density decreased through time, and was significantly lowest in the high phosphate treatment. Phosphate concentration produced no visible effects of stress on the corals, as indicated by polyp extension and lack of mortality. It is suggested that the phosphate enhanced growth was due to increased zooxanthellar populations and photosynthetic production within the coral.”


The optimal nitrate to phosphate balance is 6.4-6.8.

Excess nitrate is significantly more damaging to corals than excess phosphates.

One the main reasons scientists attribute to the loss of our global reefs is phosphate reduction in the ocean.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...nutrient_loading_on_the_coral-algal_mutualism

 

[living_tribunal]

Some more, fish poop has the optimal balance of n/p. An additional main catalysts for the loss of reefs is mass fishing.

Phosphate is absolutely mandatory for reef systems. Of course nitrate is too but it needs to be present and in very very low quantities.

The I’ll effect of high phosphate is significantly faster coral growth but at the expense of a more brittle skeleton. Nothing that would affect our corals in our tanks but certainly would in the wild.

 

[Magellan]

This blurb essentially sums up everything I’ve found and the consensus among the scientific community:

“We determined the effects of elevated phosphate on coral growth and density. Genetically distinct colonies of Acropora muricata were sub-divided and distributed among three 110-L aquaria, and exposed to phosphate levels of 0.09, 0.20, and 0.50mgL−1 for four months. Total skeletal length, living tissue length, weight, branch production, and polyp extension were measured. Linear extension and tissue growth increased under all conditions. Growth rates were highest at a phosphate concentration of 0.50mgL−1. Weight increased through time, graded from low to high with phosphate concentration. Density decreased through time, and was significantly lowest in the high phosphate treatment. Phosphate concentration produced no visible effects of stress on the corals, as indicated by polyp extension and lack of mortality. It is suggested that the phosphate enhanced growth was due to increased zooxanthellar populations and photosynthetic production within the coral.”


The optimal nitrate to phosphate balance is 6.4-6.8.

Excess nitrate is significantly more damaging to corals than excess phosphates.

One the main reasons scientists attribute to the loss of our global reefs is phosphate reduction in the ocean.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...nutrient_loading_on_the_coral-algal_mutualism

Whoa whoa whoa, that didn’t alarm you? For the same reasons as the other post? “Density decreased through time, and was significantly lower in the high phosphate treatment”. And that was over a period of just four months! Imagine if someone offered you a pill that would make you taller but give you terrible osteoporosis. The more you took, the more osteoporosis. Would you take the pill?

 

[Magellan]

Some more, fish poop has the optimal balance of n/p. An additional main catalysts for the loss of reefs is mass fishing.

Phosphate is absolutely mandatory for reef systems. Of course nitrate is too but it needs to be present and in very very low quantities.

The I’ll effect of high phosphate is significantly faster coral growth but at the expense of a more brittle skeleton. Nothing that would affect our corals in our tanks but certainly would in the wild.

The best reefs always seem to have a ton of fish. That’s where my thoughts went at least! @JoshH this clearly means you should get the copperband ;Hilarious

 

[living_tribunal]

“... Phosphate is critical for photosynthesis, likely from its multiple products in the Calvin cycle (e.g., Martin et al. 2000), although this has not been specifically examined in zoooxanthellae. Likewise, phospholipids are incorporated into the organic matrix of corals and may be vital for the control of nucleation and crystal growth of the skeleton (Ferrier-Pagès et al. 2016 and contained references). However, an undersupply of phosphate coupled to an increase in inorganic nitrogen disrupts photosynthesis and causes a loss of coral biomass, ultimately leading to coral disease and bleaching ( Rosenberg et al. 2007;Wiedenmann et al. 2012;Rosset et al. 2017). ...”

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Food_Feeding_Nutrition_and_Secretion_A_Review

 

[living_tribunal]

Whoa whoa whoa, that didn’t alarm you? For the same reasons as the other post? “Density decreased through time, and was significantly lower in the high phosphate treatment”. And that was over a period of just four months! Imagine if someone offered you a pill that would make you taller but give you terrible osteoporosis. The more you took, the more osteoporosis. Would you take the pill?

As I mentioned earlier, while this is important in the barrier reefs, it’s not nearly as porous as you think and has no bearing on the corals in our tank. As noted in the study, there was no stress observed or mortalities. In fact, polyp extension was longer as well as photosynthetic rate of zooxanthelle.

 

[living_tribunal]

It says the phosphorus needs to come from fish poops tho. Otherwise it risks skeletal integrity. Solution: a school of fish for your tank ;)

Not necessarily. It has to be inorganic phosphate. So phosphorous for example works. Phosphate from decomposed food wont.

 

[Magellan]

“... Phosphate is critical for photosynthesis, likely from its multiple products in the Calvin cycle (e.g., Martin et al. 2000), although this has not been specifically examined in zoooxanthellae. Likewise, phospholipids are incorporated into the organic matrix of corals and may be vital for the control of nucleation and crystal growth of the skeleton (Ferrier-Pagès et al. 2016 and contained references). However, an undersupply of phosphate coupled to an increase in inorganic nitrogen disrupts photosynthesis and causes a loss of coral biomass, ultimately leading to coral disease and bleaching ( Rosenberg et al. 2007;Wiedenmann et al. 2012;Rosset et al. 2017). ...”

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Food_Feeding_Nutrition_and_Secretion_A_Review

I agree, zero phosphates are bad! There aren’t numbers attached to those statements though, that previously posted experiment was thorough, and I would suspect that the effect of phosphate was exponential as well.

As I mentioned earlier, while this is important in the barrier reefs, it’s not nearly as porous as you think and has no bearing on the corals in our tank. As noted in the study, there was no stress observed or mortalities. In fact, polyp extension was longer as well as photosynthetic rate of zooxanthelle.

on a 4 month study of one species of Acro. How long are you planning to keep those corals?

 

[living_tribunal]

I agree, zero phosphates are bad! There aren’t numbers attached to those statements though, that experiment was thorough, and I would suspect that the effect of phosphate was exponential as well, before completing

on a 4 month study of one species of Acro. How long are you planning to keep those corals?

They did have numbers attached though. They tested with a low param of 0.09 and a high at .5 mgL (ppm). Growth was fastest at .5.

 

[living_tribunal]

I agree, zero phosphates are bad! There aren’t numbers attached to those statements though, that previously posted experiment was thorough, and I would suspect that the effect of phosphate was exponential as well.

on a 4 month study of one species of Acro. How long are you planning to keep those corals?

There are hundreds of more studies confirming this.

Check the citations.

 

[Magellan]

They did have numbers attached though. They tested with a low param of 0.09 and a high at .5 mgL (ppm). Growth was fastest at .5.

As was skeletal decay! Were all those blurbs from the same article? I thought you were referencing two different sources

 

[living_tribunal]

As was skeletal decay! Were all those blurbs from the same article? I thought you were referencing two different sources

It's not skeletal decay, it's skeleton density.

Porous skeleton is not necessarily bad and certainly not for corals in our tank. It's due to the availability of phosphate and the ability to use it. Of course there has to be balance however and I'm not saying anyone should go around phosphates unless they have to.

What I'm mainly getting at is A.) The idiots running gfo out there and this stigma around phosphates telling everyone to decrease theirs. B.) People tend to associate the benefits of phosphates with nitrate which is incorrect. As a coral absorbs phosphate from the column, it then passses very small amounts of nitrate to zooxanthelle which produces sugar for the coral to grow. When nitrate is too high itremoves the relationship and less sugar ispassed to the coral.

I remember seeing a brs video where they even said that excess phosphate DECREASES skeletal growth. Absolute skeletal growth and mass is larger under high phosphates, just density is slightly less.

A few scientists have even proclaimed that absent of algae to cover the coral in high nutrient systems, higher phosphate is preferable as long as the relationship with N is maintained.

 

[living_tribunal]

As was skeletal decay! Were all those blurbs from the same article? I thought you were referencing two different sources

Referencing a few I didn't add a link to. Read the articles in the citations, they are very interesting.

 

[living_tribunal]

Here is one that breaks down a lot of this:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5441187/

Corals adjust to low nitrogen/phosphorous significantly better than high nitrogen/phosphorous. Nitrate is a coral killer and most of these scientists consider nitrogen to be the only pollutant in the situation.

I feel like many issues people have in their tanks is due to this when other parameters are in line.

What I'm really trying to get at is people dramatically underestimate the importance of phosphates in our system.

I kept cringing when people just kept parroting "don't chase numbers" as a response when I inquired about my bottomed phosphate levels. "Don't dose phosphate, that's a recipe for disaster".

It was very annoying. I suppose those people don't care for the health of their corals.