Bulbs for T5/LED Hybrid

[iemsparticus]

Hey Folks,

I am looking to get a little feedback. My current light setup is a retrofit light system under my hood consisting of 4x 48” T5 bulbs and 2x Kessil A360WEs over a 120 mixed reef. Here’s a picture from my build thread for reference:

Currently, I have 2x Giesemann Aquablue Azure and 2x Giesemann Super Actinic bulbs over the tank.

I ramp my Kessils up in color slowly, like this:

The color they give looks great. Here’s my issue: the T5s come on from 11am to 6pm, and my feeling is that they seem to make a lot of the corals appear washed out. The corals really seem to pop before the T5s come on, and as soon as they turn off, which is frustrating. I know the human eye is a terrible judge of spectrum... so I would like to solicit the advice of some of you who have studied this much more than I have at this point... such as @saltyfilmfolks, @mcarroll, @Dana Riddle, etc...

Should I be trying different T5 bulbs?

Spectral readings provided on the BRS website for the T5s are as follows...

Aquablue Azure:

Super Actinic:

And a spectral reading under moving water of a Kessil A360WE at 50% color (my max) from the BRS video regarding these Kessils:

I saw a Jason Fox video where he shows that he uses all ATI Blue Plus bulbs, which do not have nearly the 550, 600, and 650 spikes like the Aquablue Azure does.

Basically I want to get some feedback with regards to the spectrum of light I am providing, and, if there are some obvious improvements people see.

I would love to hear feedback from @randyBRS and @Ryanbrs as well, since their BRS 160 uses a similar lighting setup, with AP700s instead of A360WEs.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

The azure is probably what you don't like.

Without seeing it , it's hard to say.
I'd set the kessil to the sweet spot you like to look at , and turn the t5 pairs off one at a time.

Personally I'd swap to the ati blue plus over the azure. I know the ati better than the Geismann sadly.

 

[iemsparticus]

Looking on BRS, it doesn’t look like Giesemann really has anything (at least that BRS carries) that has a similar spectral chart to the ATI Blue Plus:

Would you use 4x Blue Plus, or would you throw any Actinics in there? Spectral graph for the ATI True Actinic bulb:

Seems very very close to the Giesemann Actinic bulbs I’m using.

Tomorrow I will try turning off the Azures to verify... but I’m sure you’re right... I suspect it’s the peaks in the 550, 600, and 650 ranges that I don’t like.

I just don’t want to rob my corals of spectrum they need... I guess if Jason Fox is using all Blue Plus, it can’t be that bad to do the same... lol

 

[iemsparticus]

Ah scratch that... Giesemann True Actinic:

Very similar to ATI Blue Plus:

Giesemann has more intensity in the 450 range, and less in the 400.

;Bookworm

 

[Diesel]

I had ATI bulbs for a while but have done a lot of research and switch to the Gieseman bulbs 3.5 years ago.
I tried almost every color combo on the giesemans and had I pinned down pretty good.
SPS was growing out the tank and color was out of this world.
I had only 1 azure in the 8 bulbs to give me some more daylight as I had only 1 daylight bulb and for SPS that ain't enough.

 

[iemsparticus]

I had ATI bulbs for a while but have done a lot of research and switch to the Gieseman bulbs 3.5 years ago.
I tried almost every color combo on the giesemans and had I pinned down pretty good.
SPS was growing out the tank and color was out of this world.
I had only 1 azure in the 8 bulbs to give me some more daylight as I had only 1 daylight bulb and for SPS that ain't enough.

Great looking tank! So if you had 4 bulbs to work with... what would you use? You can see what spectrum levels my Kessils are running at above if that would inform your decision.

 

[mcarroll]

I am looking to get a little feedback. My current light setup is a retrofit light system under my hood consisting of 4x 48” T5 bulbs and 2x Kessil A360WEs over a 120 mixed reef.

The color they give looks great. Here’s my issue: the T5s come on from 11am to 6pm, and my feeling is that they seem to make a lot of the corals appear washed out.

I like all the advice so far, so don't take mine as exclusive – just different!

It sounds like you're trying to use the T5's as your main lights and the Kessils as sunrise/sunset.

Which is strange as it sounds like you prefer the Kessils.

Unless you have an attachment to the T5's, personally I'd yank them and add one or two more Kessil's.

If you are partial to the T5's then I would ditch the Kessils and make room for more.

It doesn't seem like you set out to create this look, so I'd take the opportunity to switch in a direction that makes more sense to what you actually like.

FYI, if you get the Kessils down lower, the coverage should be better....you can kinda see it in the mockup:

With the lights mounted higher (this may be higher than yours, I can't tell) you lose a lot of internal coverage:

 

[Xclusive Reef]

I had ATI bulbs for a while but have done a lot of research and switch to the Gieseman bulbs 3.5 years ago.
I tried almost every color combo on the giesemans and had I pinned down pretty good.
SPS was growing out the tank and color was out of this world.
I had only 1 azure in the 8 bulbs to give me some more daylight as I had only 1 daylight bulb and for SPS that ain't enough.

Nice looking tank. what bulb combination are you running ?

 

[iemsparticus]

I like all the advice so far, so don't take mine as exclusive – just different!

It sounds like you're trying to use the T5's as your main lights and the Kessils as sunrise/sunset.

Which is strange as it sounds like you prefer the Kessils.

Unless you have an attachment to the T5's, personally I'd yank them and add one or two more Kessil's.

If you are partial to the T5's then I would ditch the Kessils and make room for more.

It doesn't seem like you set out to create this look, so I'd take the opportunity to switch in a direction that makes more sense to what you actually like.

FYI, if you get the Kessils down lower, the coverage should be better....you can kinda see it in the mockup:

With the lights mounted higher (this may be higher than yours, I can't tell) you lose a lot of internal coverage:

So the initial reason I went with the hybrid was because I wanted the spot lights in combination with a diffuse light source. I do prefer the looks of the Kessil for sure... at least at this point. What I do not want to do is go completely T5... the look of the shimmer is just too nice to give up. As far as I am concerned, the hybrid solution looks very natural, as far as shimmer and “glow,” if you follow.

This being said, I have been seriously considering going with 4 A360s.

My LEDs are mounted in my canopy 7.5” above the water level.

I am willing to consider all options... the only major reason that gives me pause with switching out the T5s with two more Kessils is that it’s a pretty drastic change and I worry about doing damage to my corals... I’ve just succeeded in coaxing my Superman back from near death... I worry about reliving that. Haha.

 

[mcarroll]

This being said, I have been seriously considering going with 4 A360s.

My LEDs are mounted in my canopy 7.5” above the water level.

The first thing I'd try (assuming it's easy) is to lower your existing 360's to around 4", turn off the T5's and see what you think of them solo.

Use a light meter to keep overall light levels as consistent as possible between changes. At minimum use a lux meter like my "LX-1010B".....$10-$15.

Hypothetically two 360's is all your "should" need, but even if you can't get the intensity you need it should at least give you a fair look so you can imagine what 4 could be like.

Lower is definitely more ideal on paper....but you need to see for yourself. I'm curious if you think lowering makes a difference that you like.

If you already have the budget and the thought toward four units, then that's pretty much how I'm going to lean for you.

Four, placed appropriately low to capture all the light from the fixtures in the tank should provide beautiful coverage with very minimal shadows.

It would be a good idea to look at other quad-360 tanks as well as dual ap700 tanks for comparison.

 

[iemsparticus]

Thanks for the suggestions. Man 4” seems just so close to the water... have you never had issues with lights that close?

I’m thinking 7.5” above the water with 4 Kessils will provide all coverage I could need... thoughts?

 

[mcarroll]

Coverage is a math equation based on the angle of your fixture's lenses and the surface area that needs to be covered.

I work through an example on my Online Triangle Calculator page. Let me know if that generates any questions.

With 140º lenses, a 4.37" mounting height gives you a mathematical spread radius of 12.0 inches. "Technically perfect" for a 24" thick tank. (Yes, Kessil generically recommends 8-12", but that's without respect for the area you have to cover.)

That's also why I say it's a place to start experimenting – it's an ideal, it's not perfect.

Starting there, you'll at least know that almost no light is shining outside the tank. (Light spill.)

You'll also know that internal reflections in the tank are being maximized for the best possible side-lighting.

You can start with that knowledge and then look at the tank.

Does it look different? Better?

Is 4" too low – even if it looks a little better – just because you want your lights more out of the way?

It's hard for you to answer these things without trying it out. That's what I'd encourage.

Kessil doesn't say 4" is too low as far as I can tell – so that would be for you to say.

If your tank has waves and generates any considerable amount of spray from the tank surface, then 4" is probably too close. I'd suggest switching to 360N's in that case, so you can raise them up. The 360N's geometry probably fits the 8-12" mounting height better, but I'm not exactly sure what the lenses are.

 

[rtparty]

The Azure bulbs are your problem. They are similar to the ATI Aquablue, a bulb I haven't recommended using for at least 6-7 years. They wash the tank out like you're seeing.

With my Radium halide bulb I run 2 Blue Plus, 1 Coral Plus and 1 True Actinic. It's a very nice combo to my eye that pops colors but doesn't give that overly blue look.

Personally, I wouldn't remove the T5s for two more Kessil. You'll have more hotspots and less overall coverage when it comes to lighting the underside of the corals. A hybrid solution has always been one of the best options available whether it was MH with VHO/T5 or LED and T5. You get the strengths of both lighting platforms.

 

[BigJim]

Sorry I didn’t chime in sooner on this thread. I use three Kessil A360WE and four T5 retrofits. I ramp the Kessil color very similar to your settings. Mine peak at 60% for two hours. I also run them at 90% intensity for 8 hours. I am currently using two ATI Blue Plus, one KZ Fiji Purple and one KZ Coral Light II. I was using two KZ Coral Light IIs but it was a little too much white for my taste. I run the T5 for 7.5 hours.

I would recommend two ATI Blue Plus and maybe even three if you really like the blue pop. You can always adjust the Kessil color if it is too blue. If you get into SPS you will find the blue and purple SPS can look washed out if your lights are too blue.

Here is a link to my tank thread if it will help. I have not achieved the results Diesel achieved, but few of us do.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bigjims-155-tank-thread.257840/page-3#post-4146620

 

[iemsparticus]

Sorry I didn’t chime in sooner on this thread. I use three Kessil A360WE and four T5 retrofits. I ramp the Kessil color very similar to your settings. Mine peak at 60% for two hours. I also run them at 90% intensity for 8 hours. I am currently using two ATI Blue Plus, one KZ Fiji Purple and one KZ Coral Light II. I was using two KZ Coral Light IIs but it was a little too much white for my taste. I run the T5 for 7.5 hours.

I would recommend two ATI Blue Plus and maybe even three if you really like the blue pop. You can always adjust the Kessil color if it is too blue. If you get into SPS you will find the blue and purple SPS can look washed out if your lights are too blue.

Here is a link to my tank thread if it will help. I have not achieved the results Diesel achieved, but few of us do.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bigjims-155-tank-thread.257840/page-3#post-4146620

You may not feel your tank is like Diesel’s... but lol... it’s none too shabby to say the least!!

So you have an extra 2 feet on my tank and use 1 additional Kessil, and go to 90% for 8 hours instead of being between 70% & 80% for 10 hours, and you also give the tank a half hour extra with the T5s. Interesting. I really do need to get my PAR meter back in there and get some measurements during different times in the day.

So if I went two “Blue Plus” equivalents, a Actinic, and a Purple, where do you place them?

 

[Gablami]

I'm using 2 ATI blue plus and 2 coral plus with my AP700s. I find that gives a nice balanced base to build from. I caution against too many blue plus, since it can give the tank a "windex look."

Is it the spectrum you don't like when the t5 come on or the fact that you lose contrast with diffuse light and tank looks more flat? If it is spectrum, one suggestion is to adjust the spectrum on your LED to your liking while the T5 are on. It can make more of a difference than you think.

 

[iemsparticus]

I'm using 2 ATI blue plus and 2 coral plus with my AP700s. I find that gives a nice balanced base to build from. I caution against too many blue plus, since it can give the tank a "windex look."

Is it the spectrum you don't like when the t5 come on or the fact that you lose contrast with diffuse light and tank looks more flat? If it is spectrum, one suggestion is to adjust the spectrum on your LED to your liking while the T5 are on. It can make more of a difference than you think.

It’s the Spectrum that causes the washed out coral look, so that’s what I don’t like... I would rather change the T5s than the LED spectrum since the LEDs are already where I like them, and they are on for 6 hours without T5s.

 

[Diesel]

I will chime in tonight as I'll check my combo.

 

[iemsparticus]

I will chime in tonight as I'll check my combo.

Sounds great

I’m wondering about something like 2x Giesemann Actinic Blue, 1x Giesemann Super Actinic, and 1x Giesemann Super Purple along with my Kessils for the Hybrid option.

 

[iemsparticus]

Coverage is a math equation based on the angle of your fixture's lenses and the surface area that needs to be covered.

I work through an example on my Online Triangle Calculator page. Let me know if that generates any questions.

With 140º lenses, a 4.37" mounting height gives you a mathematical spread radius of 12.0 inches. "Technically perfect" for a 24" thick tank. (Yes, Kessil generically recommends 8-12", but that's without respect for the area you have to cover.)

That's also why I say it's a place to start experimenting – it's an ideal, it's not perfect.

Starting there, you'll at least know that almost no light is shining outside the tank. (Light spill.)

You'll also know that internal reflections in the tank are being maximized for the best possible side-lighting.

You can start with that knowledge and then look at the tank.

Does it look different? Better?

Is 4" too low – even if it looks a little better – just because you want your lights more out of the way?

It's hard for you to answer these things without trying it out. That's what I'd encourage.

Kessil doesn't say 4" is too low as far as I can tell – so that would be for you to say.

If your tank has waves and generates any considerable amount of spray from the tank surface, then 4" is probably too close. I'd suggest switching to 360N's in that case, so you can raise them up. The 360N's geometry probably fits the 8-12" mounting height better, but I'm not exactly sure what the lenses are.

The 360Ns have a 60 degree angle lense, so you have to lift them 21” up to cover the 24” a 360W covers at 4.4” up. That isn’t happening.

On the other hand, an A360WE at 7.5” up covers a 42” spread... so there is significant spillover... which doesn’t bother per say because it’s in a hood... but efficiency is lost for sure.