Busted!!! For Illegal Live Rock Collection/Sales

ourcoralreef · Feb 8, 2018

Justfebreezeit said:
True the only real way to verify is to go with them on EVERY DIVE

No they probably only let you put rock thats not native to Florida

He probably got caught because someone realized that the rock could not have been planted and then they started a investigation

Midrats · Feb 8, 2018

Dale did have some nice rock, now we know why.

d2mini · Feb 9, 2018

Might want to keep an eye on this page... I bet we see more soon.

https://www.fws.gov/le/stories.html

SciGuy2 · Feb 9, 2018

Crap! I see a conviction of a Richard Perrin of Romulus, Michigan! Please tell me this is a different Dick
Perrin!

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdfl/p...tor-sentenced-illegal-trafficking-marine-life

Midrats · Feb 9, 2018

Tropicorium poached American alligators, wow

MTBake · Feb 9, 2018

LbulletM said:
Is this the same as GulfLiveRock?

Wondering the same thing. Thinking about an order through them. Anyone know if gulfliverock is legit?

chipmunkofdoom2 · Feb 9, 2018

+1, the fine was way too small. This is pretty systemic though. We create rules for businesses, then slap their wrists when they're caught outright violating them.

In 2016, the EU fined Google $2.7 billion for anti-competitive practices. Google's balance sheet cashflows were around $90 billion at the time. That's about 3% of Google's cash flow for that year. How does that deter anyone from doing shady business dealings? If you were a business owner, would you pay 3% of your cashflow to buy a monopoly on your market?

To put it in perspective, let's suppose you want to park in a parking space. But, the space has a parking meter, and it costs $100 to park there. You notice in the small print that the fine for not paying the $100 fee is $3. What would you do? You'd be stupid to pay the $100 fee when the fine for not paying is only $3.

Midrats · Feb 9, 2018

Parking tickets are cheap in Baltimore.

Cory · Feb 9, 2018

He had his licences to make aquacultured live rock, but was found taking rock that was not placed by him.

I think all rock should be stamped or burned aquacultured

Heliarc19 · Feb 9, 2018

Cory said:
He had his licences to make aquacultured live rock, but was found taking rock that was not placed by him.

I think all rock should be stamped or burned aquacultured

Something to be able to check AFTER it’s removed would be a good idea

Cory · Feb 9, 2018

Heliarc19 said:
Something to be able to check AFTER it’s removed would be a good idea

Yes i see your point. Now they need some goverment person to go down with them.

Or dont let them aquaculture rock near natural live rock.

NY_Caveman · Feb 9, 2018

The problem is if this gets found to be widespread, the government will likely just take the easy route and stop issuing aquaculture permits to all businesses including the ones who were legitimate. Between this and the back and forth on the Fiji ban, I worry about the fate of quality live rock in general.

I also wonder how recent hurricanes in Florida and the gulf have contributed to illegal gathering. We know a few were hit hard and some aquaculture farms were wiped out. To stay in business, have some otherwise legitimate operations considered straying into natural live rock to keep their business afloat? Not pointing any fingers or trying to create rumors or speculation, but when one's livelihood is on the line who knows what any of us would really do.

NY_Caveman · Feb 9, 2018

I will add that I feel for companies like TBSW, KP, ARCReef, GulfLiveRock, etc. They are in a position it seems where they may need to defend their highly regulated practices, even if they have maintained legal and legitimate practices all along, because of an unscrupulous player.

ourcoralreef · Feb 10, 2018

Cory said:
He had his licences to make aquacultured live rock, but was found taking rock that was not placed by him.

I think all rock should be stamped or burned aquacultured

Or rock that is not native to Florida

Cory · Feb 10, 2018

ourcoralreef said:
Or rock that is not native to Florida

Thats an easy way to identify for sure. But would probably increase the cost since it has to be imported.

VR28man · Feb 10, 2018

Cory said:
Thats an easy way to identify for sure. But would probably increase the cost since it has to be imported.

Tbs does that, using walt smith’s artificial rock. Imo that’s an advantage because it’s easier to ‘scape.

That being said, if u wanna differentiate quarried rock by its source, it’s probably very difficult - certainly impractical, maybe impossible - to tell where it came from. Especially if it’s been in the sea a few years.

liverock · Feb 13, 2018

VR28man said:
Tbs does that, using walt smith’s artificial rock. Imo that’s an advantage because it’s easier to ‘scape.

That being said, if u wanna differentiate quarried rock by its source, it’s probably very difficult - certainly impractical, maybe impossible - to tell where it came from. Especially if it’s been in the sea a few years.

Used to be true...but now the Feds are up on their game, and have qualified scientific types that are doing analysis on live rock that is being transported in and out of state to determine origin.

VR28man · Feb 13, 2018

liverock said:
Used to be true...but now the Feds are up on their game, and have qualified scientific types that are doing analysis on live rock that is being transported in and out of state to determine origin.

Thanks, Rich! It's sad that these scofflaws force the taxpayer to have to do this. I can't imagine it's cheap. (though, of course, your WS 2.1 rock should be easy to ID as aquacultured.

)

As an aside, the FWS press release is interesting; Barger/FLR harvested 3,600lbs of aquacultured rock in 7 months, and 15,000 of (I presume their meaning is poached wild) LR from federal waters during the same period. (at 1lbs per gallon, that means 18,000 gallons of aquaria. if the average reef tank is 75 gallons, that means enough rock for 240 customers).

So, if someone got some rock form him recently, like 80% of it was actually wild.

Very very egregious violation. I think he got off rather lightly, but I'd imagine it was a plea bargain.

A Toadstool Leather · Feb 13, 2018

I cannot stand poaching. Thank goodness for aquaculture. Not that collecting is bad or anything.

Rocky's Live Rocks · Nov 24, 2019

d2mini said:
Dale Barger of Florida Live Rock got off easy IMO.
Future prosecutions are rumored to get harsher and harsher.
https://www.fws.gov/le/pdf/01-17-2018-barger-sentencing.doc

Do your part folks... buy AQUACULTURED live rock from places like TampaBaySaltwater and KP Aquatics. You get all the same benefits but it's not harming the reef.

I've seen these operations first hand. They're legit.

Dry rock about to go in...

And here it is a few months later...

[/QUOTthank you Dale Barger for ruining it for everyone.

d2mini said:
Dale Barger of Florida Live Rock got off easy IMO.
Future prosecutions are rumored to get harsher and harsher.
https://www.fws.gov/le/pdf/01-17-2018-barger-sentencing.doc

Do your part folks... buy AQUACULTURED live rock from places like TampaBaySaltwater and KP Aquatics. You get all the same benefits but it's not harming the reef.

I've seen these operations first hand. They're legit.

Dry rock about to go in...

And here it is a few months later...

Thank you Dale Barger from floridaliverock.com aka formerly gulf-view.com for ruining for everyone. This industry is filled with honest hard working folks that love what they do. The $35,000 fine and no jail time seems unreasonable low for the crime you committed. However, you are now a convicted felon. Obviously, this industry is better off without you.