CA and DKH will not rise no matter what

[Genetics]

also i have been dosing the kalk during the night so the ph increase hopefully isnt that bad and my ph was low to begin with but i should probably monitor it more closely aswell and maybe switch to just 2 part if it is a problem.

You can add more of one than the other to adjust levels. But in general the reaction for coral growth is the same and ideally adding equal parts is the long term solution.

On my recent setup I noticed I didn’t like the parameters using IO salt. After looking through the options, pricing, and availability I switched to IO’s Reef Crystals for water changes. Alk sits closer to 8.5/8.8 and calcium at 410.

 

[DanyL]

alright so with 2 part dosing the general idea is dose both in equal parts unless 1 level is lower and then adjust that one higher?

Correct.

also i have been dosing the kalk during the night so the ph increase hopefully isnt that bad and my ph was low to begin with but i should probably monitor it more closely aswell and maybe switch to just 2 part if it is a problem.

You might want to use Sodium Carbonate (baked Sodium Bicarbonate) instead, it'll both raise your ph and alkalinity, and is easier to manage. But you can also keep using kalk at night if it isn't enough.

according to api tests the phosphate is 0 but it only has 0 which is a yellowish and then .25 which is green, just looking at it at a glance it looks like 0 but if you look really close there is a very slight tint of green to the yellow. i just took a guess at under .1 because it looks closer to the 0 color forsure.

I will keep the carbon dosing up, i might add some vodka into the ratio however i already have an issue with red/brown slime growing on my chaeto and have heard vodka can be worse for feeding problematic bacteria aswell? I also do have only 2 16w leds on the tank currently but do have another much stronger led i took off temperarilly until i got my nutrients in check because i was having bad slime and algae in the tank with it on aswell.

Phosphates are little tricky to get right with regular test kits, that's one test I highly recommend using Hanna checkers (phosphate ULR) for.
You want to keep it between 0.01 to 0.1, but I wouldn't chase it down too hard, just make sure it is detectible though because otherwise the corals will suffer.

Also note that if your Phosphates really are this low, carbon dosing is not advisable, you would want to dose phosphates instead which in turn would allow organisms to consume higher amounts of nitrates.
And if your growing chaeto your Mg and Iron levels are most likely depleted and you'll want to keep them both in check.
For this you'll want to send an ICP test, this will also reveal any other imbalanced elements in your system and allow you to start supplementing trace elements.

1350-1450*

1350 for a mixed reef would be better.

 

[blazin'reefer]

You can add more of one than the other to adjust levels. But in general the reaction for coral growth is the same and ideally adding equal parts is the long term solution.

On my recent setup I noticed I didn’t like the parameters using IO salt. After looking through the options, pricing, and availability I switched to IO’s Reef Crystals for water changes. Alk sits closer to 8.5/8.8 and calcium at 410.

oh ok that makes sense then, guess that is why kalk has equal parts of both aswell.

I am using instant ocean currently too, i thought it was suppose to mix to like 9dkh and 400 but i guess maybe they over shoot those numbers like they do the total gallons it makes. I only have like 20-30 gallons of the io salt left so maybe i will look into changing to reef crystals after possibly too.

 

[blazin'reefer]

Correct.

You might want to use Sodium Carbonate (baked Sodium Bicarbonate) instead, it'll both raise your ph and alkalinity, and is easier to manage. But you can also keep using kalk at night if it isn't enough.

Phosphates are little tricky to get right with regular test kits, that's one test I highly recommend using Hanna checkers (phosphate ULR) for.
You want to keep it between 0.01 to 0.1, but I wouldn't chase it down too hard, just make sure it is detectible though because otherwise the corals will suffer.

Also note that if your Phosphates really are this low, carbon dosing is not advisable, you would want to dose phosphates instead which in turn would allow organisms to consume higher amounts of nitrates.
And if your growing chaeto your Mg and Iron levels are most likely depleted and you'll want to keep them both in check.
For this you'll want to send an ICP test, this will also reveal any other imbalanced elements in your system and allow you to start supplementing trace elements.

1350 for a mixed reef would be better.

ok sounds good. I actually was thinking about baking it to turn it to soda ash but was worried i might contaminate it somehow, i may give that a try though.

That is actually the second time i have heard that now about the api po4 tests so i will try to look into getting either a hanna checker eventually if i can find a good price on one or a salifert test or something since i have heard they are the best 2 for p04.

I am not sure if my numbers are really that low or if it is the tests as i have never had a detectable reading with my old api tests or the new ones. I definitely want to make sure its that low before i even think about dosing p04. I did run gfo for the first couple years of the tank but havent used any in months. I do feed unrinsed frozen food and also dry foods high in phosphate every day aswell.

Yes i have a small aquaclear 70 or 300 filter turned into a chaeto fuge and i was pulling a big handfull of chaeto every 3 days before the slime slowed it back, now its like once a week or 2. I wouldnt be surprised if that has lowered my mag. I have been using like 3-5 drops of red sea trace colors randomly every 2 weeks to a month aswell. I have heard about icp tests multiple times now too just havent done it yet. I found a fauna marine icp that checks 37 elements for only $30 though so i probably will try it relatively soon.

ok i will try to aim for like 1350 then once i get the tests if thats better for mixed systems.

 

[DanyL]

Baking Sodium Bicarbonate should be easy enough to do at home, but you might as well just purchase it in the final form from any chemical supplies store, just make sure its at least food grade.

PO4 is indeed a hard test to do with regular home kits, Salifert included.
Hanna does provide the cheapest most accurate way to test it at home. In fact, it's the only test I do with Hanna instead of Salifert. Just make sure to get the correct one (ULR) and to perfectly follow their instructions. I also recommend to store the cuvettes filled with RODI to ensure they are free from spots and keep the direction of the cuvettes the same between tests for consistency.

Both API and Fauna Marine provide cheap, and high quality ICP services, its a great way to get a wide view of what's going on with your system, and allows you to plan out a strategy to combat problems when they arise.
You'll also get recommendations from the ICP company on what to do when elements are found outside their recommended range, not all are as important as others though so you might want to read about the importance of each element before following their suggestions.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

MG must be 1350-1450ppm stable or you’ll get false readings of both ALK and CA.

False reading? Why? You are suggesting the kit wouldn't even work in natural seawater at 35 ppt.

 

[Uncle99]

False reading? Why? You are suggesting the kit wouldn't even work in natural seawater at 35 ppt.

My understanding was that low MG can result in fluctuations in Alk and CA test results.
Is that a myth?
So if natural sea water contains around the 1300ppm mark, this IMM is high enough for readings to be consistent.
But maybe this whole thing is a myth?
Would not be the first time I followed some thinking that was not true.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My understanding was that low MG can result in fluctuations in Alk and CA test results.
Is that a myth?
So if natural sea water contains around the 1300ppm mark, this IMM is high enough for readings to be consistent.
But maybe this whole thing is a myth?
Would not be the first time I followed some thinking that was not true.

Low magnesium, low phosphate and low organics all will contribute to an increased rate of abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate. They all bind to calcium carbonate surfaces and tend to block ongoing precipitation.

But there is nothing false about a kit measurement under those conditions.

 

[blazin'reefer]

Baking Sodium Bicarbonate should be easy enough to do at home, but you might as well just purchase it in the final form from any chemical supplies store, just make sure its at least food grade.

PO4 is indeed a hard test to do with regular home kits, Salifert included.
Hanna does provide the cheapest most accurate way to test it at home. In fact, it's the only test I do with Hanna instead of Salifert. Just make sure to get the correct one (ULR) and to perfectly follow their instructions. I also recommend to store the cuvettes filled with RODI to ensure they are free from spots and keep the direction of the cuvettes the same between tests for consistency.

Both API and Fauna Marine provide cheap, and high quality ICP services, its a great way to get a wide view of what's going on with your system, and allows you to plan out a strategy to combat problems when they arise.
You'll also get recommendations from the ICP company on what to do when elements are found outside their recommended range, not all are as important as others though so you might want to read about the importance of each element before following their suggestions.

alright cool, if i was to just bake baking soda i guess i could just use a clean glass bowl if the temperature isnt too high for it. Just dont really want to bake it on aluminum foil or parchemant. If that doesnt work though i will check some local chemical supply stores.

Thanks for all the info on the p04 tests. Will try to see if i can find a used hanna ulr phosphate checker over the next few weeks as i have seen them before for decent prices but if not i will probably just grab a new one from reefsupplies whenever i do get an icp.

ok i will take a look at the api icp aswell then, leaning towards fauna marin though just based on the fact they have them at reefsupplies and also the fact api doesnt have the best reputation or accuracy with their normal tests. I will try and look up which elements are most important between the 2 icps though too.

 

[DanyL]

You can find examples on YouTube by other reefers demonstrating how they bake Sodium Bicarbonate at home, you might find it to be helpful.

Bear in mind that at least here in Israel I found that the cost of a second hand checker together with new cuvettes (which are more often needed than not) would exceed the cost of a brand new checker.

 

[blazin'reefer]

Low magnesium, low phosphate and low organics all will contribute to an increased rate of abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate. They all bind to calcium carbonate surfaces and tend to block ongoing precipitation.

But there is nothing false about a kit measurement under those conditions.

Thanks for clearing that up randy. I will likely still try to raise my mag to atleast nsw or a bit higher like 1350. According to api i have low phosphate in relation to nitrate and its seeming like i have low magnesium without actually testing yet so i guess maybe those are both part of the reasons i cant get my calcium up, it keeps precipitating large amounts onto surfaces if im understanding that right.

 

[blazin'reefer]

You can find examples on YouTube by other reefers demonstrating how they bake Sodium Bicarbonate at home, you might find it to be helpful.

Bear in mind that at least here in Israel I found that the cost of a second hand checker together with new cuvettes (which are more often needed than not) would exceed the cost of a brand new checker.

I'll check on youtube for the proper time and temps for baking the baking soda then to make sure i do it correct then.

Oh fair enough, i didnt even factor the cuvettes not being included in the used ones at all. I will still see if i do see one with cuvettes included but if not i will more than likely just purchase a new one i guess. Is it just that the cuvettes usually arent included because they break or that they are no longer usable for some reason?

 

[DanyL]

I'll check on youtube for the proper time and temps for baking the baking soda then to make sure i do it correct then.

Oh fair enough, i didnt even factor the cuvettes not being included in the used ones at all. I will still see if i do see one with cuvettes included but if not i will more than likely just purchase a new one i guess. Is it just that the cuvettes usually arent included because they break or that they are no longer usable for some reason?

The cuvettes need to be replaced periodically when scratches appear, otherwise it'll skew the results and show false readings.

Edit:
Additionally to scratches, the glass also looses it's transparency overtime due to a thin, invisible coating accumulated overtime. It happens even when you take good care of it, cleaning and rinsing would help but wouldn't completely prevent the inevitable.

 

[blazin'reefer]

The cuvettes need to be replaced periodically when scratches appear, otherwise it'll skew the results and show false readings.

Edit:
Additionally to scratches, the glass also looses it's transparency overtime due to a thin, invisible coating accumulated overtime. It happens even when you take good care of it, cleaning and rinsing would help but wouldn't completely prevent the inevitable.

oh ok, that does make sense since they are light meters essentially from what i have read. I will make sure that if i do consider any used ones that i ask about the condition and if there are any scratches, film or haze to them at all too.

I wonder if once they do have a film eventually soaking them with either vinnegar, baking soda, iso-alcohol or bleach would clear the built up film without scratching them up at all. obviously not mixing them together though since vinnegar and bleach can create chlorine gas.

 

[DanyL]

When I had misreads with mine I tried soaking it in vinegar, however comparing the results to a brand new cuvette I found that it wasn't enough.
I'm sure there are other cleaning methods that might work though, but given that 1 cuvettes lasts me around 8 months if not scratched earlier, I figured it didn't worth the hassle.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

and its seeming like i have low magnesium without actually testing yet

Why do you think that?

I would not make such an assumption, or at least I would not act on it without measuring. Magnesium only gets low (at normal salinity) after extensive dosing of alk and calcium and no magnesium.

 

[blazin'reefer]

When I had misreads with mine I tried soaking it in vinegar, however comparing the results to a brand new cuvette I found that it wasn't enough.
I'm sure there are other cleaning methods that might work though, but given that 1 cuvettes lasts me around 8 months if not scratched earlier, I figured it didn't worth the hassle.

Thats understandable, when I do get a hanna checker then I will probably try to keep them clean with a few different things and also keeping ro or ro/di in them when not in use how you said. When they dont look like new anymore then i will just replace them aswell.

 

[blazin'reefer]

Why do you think that?

I would not make such an assumption, or at least I would not act on it without measuring. Magnesium only gets low (at normal salinity) after extensive dosing of alk and calcium and no magnesium.

The reason i believed it might be low is because whenever i dose kalk or 2 part it seems to do almost nothing now to rise calcium and alkalinity no matter how much i try and dose and there is always what looks like a thin precipitate dust layer on stuff after too.

I am not sure that is the cause if the low phosphate can cause calcium precipitate too though. I did already add a small amount of epsom salts around 2 tsp/ 20 gallons 1 time about a week ago but definitely wont add any more until i have a mag test and i will get the right magnesium supplement if needed instead of adding any more sulphate. Wish i knew where to get that dow mag flake and calcium that you have wrote about here in canada.

I have 1 other unrelated question if you dont mind too, i was reading on another forum about anemones and bacterial infections and saw your posts on there from years ago. Is it only when the mouth stays open 24/7 that you likely have a bacterial infection if you know?

 

[blazin'reefer]

salinity is at 1.025 aswell incase i forgot to say that. It sometimes fluctuates between 1.024-1.026 rarely though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The reason i believed it might be low is because whenever i dose kalk or 2 part it seems to do almost nothing now to rise calcium and alkalinity no matter how much i try and dose and there is always what looks like a thin precipitate dust layer on stuff after too.

Which, if you did the math correctly (how much alk are you dosing in dKH per day?), suggests precipitation of calcium carbonate, not the cause of it. Precipitation is common with normal magnesium if pH and/or alk are high, or the sand is new.

I have 1 other unrelated question if you dont mind too, i was reading on another forum about anemones and bacterial infections and saw your posts on there from years ago. Is it only when the mouth stays open 24/7 that you likely have a bacterial infection if you know?

I'm not especially knowledgeable on bacterial infections in anemones. Do you have a problem with one?