calcium formate

mbsun

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To my mind this would provide a balanced ca and alkality suppliment
Am i correct in saying that it would not act as a carbon sourse?
 

Habib(Salifert)

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It would act as a carbon source. However, there might or might not be risks involved for your tank.

Any particular reason you would like to use this?

Would calcium acetate be an option for you?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I agree with Habib.

Bacteria will metabolize it. But it probably has the least energy available from that process of any possible organic compound. So it wouldn't be especially good at driving bacterial growth, and the doses likely would be small.

If you answer yes to his last question, he's got a product for you. :D
 
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mbsun

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Thanks guys

1 carbon left over from the reaction?

How much less potent in carbon dosing terms than acetate?

I wonder what the possible risks are?

I was just curious, had a rare browse last night and saw some stuff about tropic marins new carbo calcium, which is aparantly not acetate and due to how its used, i wondered maybe if something like this was viable
 

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Thanks guys

1 carbon left over from the reaction?

How much less potent in carbon dosing terms than acetate?

I wonder what the possible risks are?

I was just curious, had a rare browse last night and saw some stuff about tropic marins new carbo calcium, which is aparantly not acetate and due to how its used, i wondered maybe if something like this was viable

I've not seen a product they call Carbo Calcium, but Tropic Marin BioCalcium is, I believe, a dry mixture of calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate, with perhaps some other stuff thrown in.

The drawback to such a product is it must be added dry to the tank and dissolved directly int eh aqaurium since it will not be stable in solution (which is why two parts are in two parts).
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Thanks guys

1 carbon left over from the reaction?

How much less potent in carbon dosing terms than acetate?

I wonder what the possible risks are?

I was just curious, had a rare browse last night and saw some stuff about tropic marins new carbo calcium, which is aparantly not acetate and due to how its used, i wondered maybe if something like this was viable

Formate oxidation looks like this:

HCO2- + 1/2 O2 + --> CO2 + OH-

There are enzymes that do that process in bacteria. I wouldn't know how to quantify how less potent it is at driving bacteria than other carbon sources, but it gives much less energy becuase it is almost fuilly oxidized already.

By comparison to methanol, another one carbon atom carbon source, bacteria can get energy in two steps before even getting to formate:

CH3OH --> CH2O --> HCO2H --> CO2
methanol --> formaldehyde --> formic acid --> carbon dioxide

I don't know what the risks might be to an aquarium from formate. It might be fine at the doses used. Or it might have undesirable tox effects.
 
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mbsun

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Thanks randy

The carbon calcium is a new product, not the biocalc

Tbh the reaction you put up is a bit beyond me, though its late so i will read over a few times, maybe i will get it more

I am assuming after yours and habib posts i weighed up the reaction properly (this time), as you confirmed (i think) 1 carbon left

Ca(HCOO)2 +co2 <=> caco3+ h2o+ c



Would acetate leave 3 carbon atoms? Am i correct

Ca(C2H3O2)2 +co2 <=> caco3 + 3h2o+ 3c

So its a third as potent as acetate in pure carbon terms.

It would seem viable, i wonder why knowbody has tried before?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Thanks randy

The carbon calcium is a new product, not the biocalc

Tbh the reaction you put up is a bit beyond me, though its late so i will read over a few times, maybe i will get it more

I am assuming after yours and habib posts i weighed up the reaction properly (this time), as you confirmed (i think) 1 carbon left

Ca(HCOO)2 +co2 <=> caco3+ h2o+ c



Would acetate leave 3 carbon atoms? Am i correct

Ca(C2H3O2)2 +co2 <=> caco3 + 3h2o+ 3c

So its a third as potent as acetate in pure carbon terms.

It would seem viable, i wonder why knowbody has tried before?

You cannot gauge potency by carbon atoms. The one carbon atom in formic acid is nearly used up already compared to the potency of other 1 carbon sources, like methanol.

Have you seen an online description of the carbo calc?
 
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mbsun

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I trust what you say, but because i avoid carbon sourse dosing (been there done that many years ago) i have never really tried to undersrand the deaper chemistry behind it, hense my rudimentary and inaccurate carbon for carbon comparrison.

That said my calculation is low, and i think you are saying its massively over, so it really is limitted in this regard (which for me is good and why i wouldnt go for acetate)

Features:

Ultra concentrated calcium and carbonate hardness for advanced reef aquarists

With Tropic Marin® CARBOCALCIUM, the total calcium and carbonate hardness needs of a typical reef aquarium can be covered with a single solution, without any additional unwanted compounds or excess carbon dioxide being created.

Minerals are consumed through the growth of organisms and other processes in the aquarium and must therefore be supplemented regularly. These include mainly calcium and carbonate hardness elements for the growth of the calcareous skeletons of stony corals, red coralline algae and other reef organisms. The special co-ordinated components in CARBOCALCIUM provide excellent care conditions in only a single solution.

Tropic Marin® CARBOCALCIUM prevents all the side effects of other methods of calcium hardness: the pH remains stable; there is no excess CO2 and there is no risk of unwanted phosphates being introduced through coral breakage. In addition, there is neither a creeping increase in salinity, nor increased oxygen consumption through carbon compounds.

Benefits:•For the first time, the calcium and carbonate supply is possible with only a single solution•Every day, a few ml of highly concentrated solution are enough to cover the entire calcium and carbonate hardness needs•Suitable for all aquarium sizes•No formation of by-products (e.g. sodium chloride); the salinity and the ion balance are not altered•No formation of excess carbon dioxide•Suitable for an aquarium stocked with soft corals, LPS, SPS and/or other filter feeders•Easy to apply – suitable both for manual dosing and for dosing pumps

How to use:

Start with a daily dose of 5 ml of CARBOCALCIUM per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume. Increase the daily dosage – by continuous control of the alkalinity – weekly by 2.5 ml per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume, until a constant carbonate hardness of 7 to 9 °dH is reached. At the same time, check the calcium concentration in the aquarium – it should be between 400-440 mg/l.

Do not exceed a maximum daily dose of 25 ml of CARBOCALCIUMper 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume.

1000 ml CARBOCALCIUM contain 40,000 mg calcium and 5,600 °carbonate hardness.

Use the new dosing calculator for an easy determination of the required amount of dosage for your aquarium.

The very accurate, straightforward Tropic Marin® water testsKH/ALKALINITY-TEST and MAGNESIUM/CALCIUM-COMBITESTare suited for checking the quality of the water and the essential parameters.
RBOCALCIUM

Features:

Ultra concentrated calcium and carbonate hardness for advanced reef aquarists

With Tropic Marin® CARBOCALCIUM, the total calcium and carbonate hardness needs of a typical reef aquarium can be covered with a single solution, without any additional unwanted compounds or excess carbon dioxide being created.

Minerals are consumed through the growth of organisms and other processes in the aquarium and must therefore be supplemented regularly. These include mainly calcium and carbonate hardness elements for the growth of the calcareous skeletons of stony corals, red coralline algae and other reef organisms. The special co-ordinated components in CARBOCALCIUM provide excellent care conditions in only a single solution.

Tropic Marin® CARBOCALCIUM prevents all the side effects of other methods of calcium hardness: the pH remains stable; there is no excess CO2 and there is no risk of unwanted phosphates being introduced through coral breakage. In addition, there is neither a creeping increase in salinity, nor increased oxygen consumption through carbon compounds.

Benefits:•For the first time, the calcium and carbonate supply is possible with only a single solution•Every day, a few ml of highly concentrated solution are enough to cover the entire calcium and carbonate hardness needs•Suitable for all aquarium sizes•No formation of by-products (e.g. sodium chloride); the salinity and the ion balance are not altered•No formation of excess carbon dioxide•Suitable for an aquarium stocked with soft corals, LPS, SPS and/or other filter feeders•Easy to apply – suitable both for manual dosing and for dosing pumps
CALCIUM

Features:

Ultra concentrated calcium and carbonate hardness for advanced reef aquarists

With Tropic Marin® CARBOCALCIUM, the total calcium and carbonate hardness needs of a typical reef aquarium can be covered with a single solution, without any additional unwanted compounds or excess carbon dioxide being created.

Minerals are consumed through the growth of organisms and other processes in the aquarium and must therefore be supplemented regularly. These include mainly calcium and carbonate hardness elements for the growth of the calcareous skeletons of stony corals, red coralline algae and other reef organisms. The special co-ordinated components in CARBOCALCIUM provide excellent care conditions in only a single solution.

Tropic Marin® CARBOCALCIUM prevents all the side effects of other methods of calcium hardness: the pH remains stable; there is no excess CO2 and there is no risk of unwanted phosphates being introduced through coral breakage. In addition, there is neither a creeping increase in salinity, nor increased oxygen consumption through carbon compounds.

Benefits:•For the first time, the calcium and carbonate supply is possible with only a single solution•Every day, a few ml of highly concentrated solution are enough to cover the entire calcium and carbonate hardness needs•Suitable for all aquarium sizes•No formation of by-products (e.g. sodium chloride); the salinity and the ion balance are not altered•No formation of excess carbon dioxide•Suitable for an aquarium stocked with soft corals, LPS, SPS and/or other filter feeders•Easy to apply – suitable both for manual dosing and for dosing pumps

How to use:

Start with a daily dose of 5 ml of CARBOCALCIUM per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume. Increase the daily dosage – by continuous control of the alkalinity – weekly by 2.5 ml per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume, until a constant carbonate hardness of 7 to 9 °dH is reached. At the same time, check the calcium concentration in the aquarium – it should be between 400-440 mg/l.

Do not exceed a maximum daily dose of 25 ml of CARBOCALCIUMper 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume.

1000 ml CARBOCALCIUM contain 40,000 mg calcium and 5,600 °carbonate hardness.

Use the new dosing calculator for an easy determination of the required amount of dosage for your aquarium.

The very accurate, straightforward Tropic Marin® water testsKH/ALKALINITY-TEST and MAGNESIUM/CALCIUM-COMBITESTare suited for checking the quality of the water and the essential parameters.

Size Art-N°

1000 ml / 33.8 fl.oz. bottle 26204


The bumf from tropic marin

There is a flat denial from hans that it is calcium acetate on a british forum

There is more info in german forums, but i cant speak german sadly


I particularly like the 40000mg litre of calcium, very neat! Kind of jumps off the page at you in terms of mol
 

Cory

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That sounds like a good supplement, theve got me convinced.

Good?
 
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mbsun

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Additionally
A quote from hans werner balling

The maximum recommended dosages of CARBOCALCIUM and ALL-FOR-REEF are based on the calculated oxygen consumption and we have tested the products up to the maximum recommended dosage.

Since corals may metabolize the calcium compounds directly and corals excrete oxygen during the day it may be possible to exceed the maximum recommended dosage without problems and without any signs of oxygen depletion"

Apologies that i cannot edit the above post to cut out the multiple times i appear to have cut and pasted!
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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It could be calcium acetate, like Salifert's All In One, or it might be calcium formate or some other simple organic salt.

Your equations are not balanced since you have CO2 on the left when it should be O2, but it is true the acetate will produce some extra CO2 relative to the formate salt. The formate also results in some CO2 (which you have in your equation as just C)
 
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mbsun

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Hans said not acetate, if not formate what other possabilities are there? From the solubility table on wikipedia formate was the only candidate i saw.

Randy could i ask you to do the equations for me properly? I am of the mind and always was in my school days that seeing the correct answer and working back from it was the best way to understand how to do it correctly.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I gave the equation in post 6 for one formate being oxidized. You can combine the OH- and the CO2 to form a carbonate if you want to think of it that way.

For acetate, it would be

CH3CO2- + 5/2 O2. -->. 2OH- + 2 CO2 + 1/2 H2O
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Based on the assumptions of not acetate and no excess CO2 production, I'd think formate sounds likely, although the latter comment is not entirely true. But none will have less CO2 if they are organics.

Other organics could include amino acids like glycine or short chain fatty acids like propionate.
 
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mbsun

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Thanks randy
Appreciated as always

And as always i need to give your posts a coat of looking at for a while to get to grips with it!

I suppose the question now is why nobody has thought of giving dosing calcium formate a go?
It will dissolve to 166g/l at 20c
130g/l is equal to 147g cacl22h2o+ 168g nahco3 (without the sodium and chloride leftover (or without the water change if you add 50g of "sodium free salt)

Though i have read re antibacterial qualities which is why its used as a food additive, perhaps this is why there is caution?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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We have discussed it before, IIRC.

I believe the issue was easy availability (or lack thereof to individuals), a tox concern, and not being cheaper than calcium acetate.

Since Habib (Salifert) sells a calcium acetate product, perhaps he will enlighten us why he elected it over other possibilities. :)
 
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mbsun

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I have never seen it discussed, that said i have limitted ability with a computer so didnt bother with forums until a few years ago

Tox - agreed
Availability- yes it also sprang out as not being too readily available, however i dont think its quite as awkward as i first thought to sourse, even as a member of the general public. But we will see
 

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Randy, Habib and Any-Other-Experts,

Well, here I am - five years late (and a dollar short)...

I've just switched over to Tropic Marin's All-for-Reef. It appears, from the above posts, that acetate is used in the product, and that it probably fuels some bacterial growth.

I've been dosing vinegar to fuel bacterial growth at the rate of 80ml/day for the past 18 months. My initial dosing of All-for-Reef is 50ml/day. Do you have any thoughts on whether or not I should I be cutting back on my vinegar dosing? As of now I've got quite decent system parameters.

Thanks in advance for any advice...
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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All for Reef is formate based. It has only a very small organic carbon dosing effect as formate contains very little usable energy, so I probably wouldn't alter the vinegar.
 
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