Can't decide whether to abandon LEDs

Reefcowboy · Oct 1, 2016

Simonsen said:
My tank is 120 cm long.

But yes, i think i gonna order a new compact version. Think that is gonna fill up the sides good! :)
Thank you! :)

It will, but you will have two different fixtures over the tank...save more and get a second V3. It will be much more worth it

Scott.h · Oct 1, 2016

Having both a led tank and t5 tank, as well as a good par meter and a lux meter, I would be happy with what you have. You need a good par meter to adjust what you have properly. A lux meter, at minimum, if you can't afford a (good) par meter. You'd find success within being able to properly adjust what you have.

Ocelaris · Oct 1, 2016

imustbenuts said:
@Ocelaris I have the 27" 16k razor. The light is entry level LED. I see you have hung the light pretty high. Why is it that high? I switched over to the 120* reflector and like the spread and light blending much better. I was at MACNA 2016 and spoke to Chris with Coral Vue. Come to find out they have a program for those with the 16k fixture to upgrade to the 15k pads and 120* reflector for $120. Your light may be different since it has 6 pads. You'll need to contact Coral Vue or look at the website for the repair program. http://www.coralvue.com/maxspect-razor-repair-service
To see an example of the wider spread, remove the 90* lens' from the fixture. The 90* lens is an actual lens. It focuses the light. That's why they had more disco effect. I changed my pads to 15k. The knock on the 16k were looking more purple to the eye. The 15k pads didn't seem to change that much. If anything it reminds me of adding a Figi pink t5 bulb to a fixture. You could even DIY an acrylic cover to fit how the lens' fit without needing to get the 120* reflector.

Thanks for the info, that's great news! Yeah, I picked it up with the tank when I got it, figured it was a chance to see how I liked leds. The entire tank was entry level, and I've upgraded the equipment quite a bit. The light was so high because I have to 60" tank, also I couldn't figure out how to lower it! But figured it out yesterday so it's about 8" off the water now. I've been pretty impressed with coralvue support, so I'll hit them up. The tank is still pretty new, and I'm taking it slow adding more difficult creatures as I feel comfortable with the tank stability and equipment.

imustbenuts · Oct 1, 2016

Ocelaris said:
Thanks for the info, that's great news! Yeah, I picked it up with the tank when I got it, figured it was a chance to see how I liked leds. The entire tank was entry level, and I've upgraded the equipment quite a bit. The light was so high because I have to 60" tank, also I couldn't figure out how to lower it! But figured it out yesterday so it's about 8" off the water now. I've been pretty impressed with coralvue support, so I'll hit them up. The tank is still pretty new, and I'm taking it slow adding more difficult creatures as I feel comfortable with the tank stability and equipment.

You will get much better spread removing the 90* lens' now that it's 8" on a 60" tank. I'm 100% sure you'll like it better. However it will put out more of a glare when looking at the light.

Sharvey103 · Oct 2, 2016

I have had them alumni the past and am currently very happy with the LEDs. use ensure you have sufficient coverage to minimize shading.

mcarroll · Oct 2, 2016

Found some diagrams that may clarify some things on shadows and coverage....and there's going to have to be a thread on this sooner or later now. :)

Why don't fluorescent lights produce shadows? from Stack Exchange has these under a physics topic.
(Ignore the inferred premise....fluorescent's do produce shadows....click the link and read on!)

This animation would approximate a spotlight shadow....and a lens change between wide and narrow.
This demo shows an extreme change and you can see shadows do not disappear. Most folks only make minor lens changes, such as from 80º to 120º.

The second animation would approximate something like T5 or an LED strip.
This pretty clearly shows the difference of an "area light".....and that there are still shadows, but really only along one plane.

The link has more good info and more graphics.

revhtree · Oct 3, 2016

mcarroll said:
Found some diagrams that may clarify some things on shadows and coverage....and there's going to have to be a thread on this sooner or later now. :)

Why don't fluorescent lights produce shadows? from Stack Exchange has these under a physics topic.
(Ignore the inferred premise....fluorescent's do produce shadows....click the link and read on!)

This animation would approximate a spotlight shadow....and a lens change between wide and narrow.
This demo shows an extreme change and you can see shadows do not disappear. Most folks only make minor lens changes, such as from 80º to 120º.

The second animation would approximate something like T5 or an LED strip.
This pretty clearly shows the difference of an "area light".....and that there are still shadows, but really only along one plane.

The link has more good info and more graphics.

Very cool!

reefwiser · Oct 3, 2016

Yes T5's and MH provide diffused light. Led's provide spotlight and thus shadows. Only way to do it with LED's is tons of them over the tank and at angles to try to provide the diffused light that corals need.

mcarroll · Oct 3, 2016

In general....

Shadowing from T5's would be similar to LED strips.

Shadows from halide would be similar to LED spotlights/pucks/chinaboxes.

Mounting height also makes a big impact on shadows in either case, and that's not really shown in those animations.

(But they do talk about it and show it on the SE link. I'm working on a post with some more diagrams to illustrate this....it's definitely more complicated than I thought.)

That StackExchage link was pretty good stuff!

saltyfilmfolks · Oct 3, 2016

nolaron said:
#AllLightsMatter

Ahahaha.

I may have to steal that.

Sorry:D

mcarroll · Oct 3, 2016

nolaron said:
#AllLightsMatter

Agreed with @saltyfilmfolks – I may have to steal that.

I got that "keep your pop in the fridge" line from @cromag08 the other day....good stuff!!

:D :D :D :D

mcarroll · Oct 3, 2016

revhtree said:
I don't hate LED, MH, T5, CF, Sunlight or any type of lighting.

I've reported this post to the mods.

gus6464 · Oct 3, 2016

MH is a point source light just like LED clusters. There is no difference. How does MH get the wide spread? Reflectors! You put a big reflector on an LED cluster and voila, you got a similar spread without the shadowing. Why don't LED manufacturers put reflectors on their lights? Cost and you can't advertise overinflated PAR numbers. LED reflector tech has improved immensely over the years. Why is it not used more? Margins are much better with a 20 cent plastic optic than a $3 reflector for each LED. Plus LED reef companies are obsessed with having as thin a fixture as possible.

Also whoever said the AP700 can't grow high light corals must be smoking some really good stuff. The AP700 has untouched spread for a point source LED because of it's nice size reflector. Sure it doesn't have the PAR of a Radion but who the hell pushes 1000 PAR on their tanks? This has already been proven by BRS when they put the light under a spectrometer and it had an identical light profile to the MH they tested.

Ocelaris · Oct 4, 2016

gus6464 said:
MH is a point source light just like LED clusters. There is no difference. How does MH get the wide spread? Reflectors! You put a big reflector on an LED cluster and voila, you got a similar spread without the shadowing. Why don't LED manufacturers put reflectors on their lights? Cost and you can't advertise overinflated PAR numbers. LED reflector tech has improved immensely over the years. Why is it not used more? Margins are much better with a 20 cent plastic optic than a $3 reflector for each LED. Plus LED reef companies are obsessed with having as thin a fixture as possible.

Also whoever said the AP700 can't grow high light corals must be smoking some really good stuff. The AP700 has untouched spread for a point source LED because of it's nice size reflector. Sure it doesn't have the PAR of a Radion but who the hell pushes 1000 PAR on their tanks? This has already been proven by BRS when they put the light under a spectrometer and it had an identical light profile to the MH they tested.

One reason they don't do reflectors on leds is that they don't make 250+ watt individual leds. Last time I checked leds were also doped on a wafer or something like that which makes them aim down. In this case I'd prefer leds as they aim all the light down, where as metal halide bounces the light out in all directions from the capsule. Not really comparable technologies in regards in how they reflect light.

hart24601 · Oct 4, 2016

I am looking forward to more reflectors on LEDs, they are doing it with LED headlights in cars. As I said before, not many remember it, but MH has shading issues too! Not as bad, and modern reflectors sure help, but it still exists.

Bpb · Oct 4, 2016

The car reflector type setup would make the most sense. Have a high power multi chip design with a large dome lens on it mounted backward pointed at a large MH style reflector. True...you miss that one little 1" square where the led wafer is, but the large reflector would disperse the light much more evenly and with much greater coverage

jeff howard · Oct 5, 2016

I will agree that the older lights are better, but they have one huge problem coming. You know how you can no longer get a plain old incandescent bulb? The government banned them as too wasteful, and the heavy metal bulbs are next. We are all going to have to adjust and learn to use the LED's for our tanks. With all that has been said here, the fact is within a few years there will be no other options. The Leds work. You have to learn to set them, but it is something you are going to have to master

bif24701 · Oct 7, 2016

jeff howard said:
I will agree that the older lights are better, but they have one huge problem coming. You know how you can no longer get a plain old incandescent bulb? The government banned them as too wasteful, and the heavy metal bulbs are next. We are all going to have to adjust and learn to use the LED's for our tanks. With all that has been said here, the fact is within a few years there will be no other options. The Leds work. You have to learn to set them, but it is something you are going to have to master

You are correct sir!

Only problem with LEDs is that nobody knows what the heck they are doing! LEDs are not plug and play!

These lights today are very powerful and far more likely to burn corals to a crisp then to not provide enough light.

I have two AP700s on my 180 set at 70% peak. I don't dare take it higher as I still have to mount some montis lower in my tank, like sand bed low, just so they don't get bleached. Also the spread is better than any MH, I am willing to bet you can not find a single spot in my tank under 150 par. Nor do I get the absurd hot spots directly under the lights.

If your corals are not doing well look at all your water first, flow, pests, stability! First Gen LEDs grow amazing coral, FACT!

LEDs have become an easy scapegoat simply because people fry their coral and are not patient enough to acclimate their coral or let them recover.

LEDs grow corals.

People fry corals with LEDs.

Bpb · Oct 7, 2016

Lol and I can guarantee you many of us will hold out until there are simply no more bulbs to buy. We will see when that is.

reefwiser · Oct 7, 2016

My issue is that I see hobbyist struggle and become disheartened and drop out of the hobby. They spend their hard earned money on fancy LED lights and can not find success. They work hard and getting their tank " prefect" and by all accounts they have everything right. People post that LED's are growing corals "with supplemental" T5's not is not a success that is a failure. New hobbyist spend hours and you see them post threads asking for help day in and day out. We are not yet at the plug and grow stage that we need to be at with LED's. This is not a Oh LED's are bad it's a call to action on the manufactures part to get LED's to where a new hobbyist doesn't' need to struggle and drop out of the hobby because they feel stupid that they can not get success. We are all here wanting to have a successful reef tank. That is the ultimate goal and everyone needs to work together to get everyone to that point . It will only make the hobby better.