Carbo calcium in layman’s terms

[Wildreefs]

Picked up this carbo calcium today, unsure if I am going to use it. Few questions on it:

1. is it considered balanced? For instance, like limewater or a calc reactor, does it provide similar ratio of alk to cal? If I’m at 8 alk, and drop to 7.5 daily, if I add enough to get it to 8, will it for the most part keep my calcium in line under normal conditions?

2. what advantages or disadvantages other than cost have to making your own two part , and adding them 1 at a time I equal doses?

and lastly, 3. It says to mix contents in 1.3 gallons. I have a 1 gallon jug. I mix the entire thing in one gallon, can i just dose less, knowing it’s a less diluted mixture, or will that less amount of water cause one of the minerals to not mix in solution?

thanks

 

[lapin]

Has Anyone tried Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium or Carbo-Calcium

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's curious that so many folks are interested in this product since similar products have been around a long time with little interest (e.cg. Salifert All In One that is calcium acetate). Maybe it is better marketing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Picked up this carbo calcium today, unsure if I am going to use it. Few questions on it:

1. is it considered balanced? For instance, like limewater or a calc reactor, does it provide similar ratio of alk to cal? If I’m at 8 alk, and drop to 7.5 daily, if I add enough to get it to 8, will it for the most part keep my calcium in line under normal conditions?

2. what advantages or disadvantages other than cost have to making your own two part , and adding them 1 at a time I equal doses?

and lastly, 3. It says to mix contents in 1.3 gallons. I have a 1 gallon jug. I mix the entire thing in one gallon, can i just dose less, knowing it’s a less diluted mixture, or will that less amount of water cause one of the minerals to not mix in solution?

thanks

It is approximately balanced. perfectly balanced? Not sure, but that also depends a bit on what organisms are using it and how much magnesium they deposit into calcium carbonate in place of calcium. . The balance depends on how they designed it, but it might be slightly off, like limewater/kalkwasser is slightly off with a bit of excess calcium.

I do not know the solubility limit for everything in it, but it is easy to try to make more concentrated and see if it all dissolves.

The disadvantages are cost, inability to make easy adjustments, inability to measure the alkalinity right away, and a small amount of carbon dosing effect.

 

[Wildreefs]

It is approximately balanced. perfectly balanced? Not sure, but that also depends a bit on what organisms are using it and how much magnesium they deposit into calcium carbonate in place of calcium. . The balance depends on how they designed it, but it might be slightly off, like limewater/kalkwasser is slightly off with a bit of excess calcium.

I do not know the solubility limit for everything in it, but it is easy to try to make more concentrated and see if it all dissolves.

The disadvantages are cost, inability to make easy adjustments, inability to measure the alkalinity right away, and a small amount of carbon dosing effect.

hmm that’s quite a few cons.

how long before you can accurately measure it? And let’s say your alk dropped to 7, you dose to get it back up to 7.5-8, altho test kits may not show it instantly, are the corals technically still short of alk at 7, or is it a usable 7.5-8, just can’t see it on kit yet?

As far as marketing goes, I’ve never heard of this stuff before (combined 2 part) was in market for ecotech doser, 2 of them is $300, LFS said why not look at Carbo-Calcium, then 1 doser takes care of both alk and cal.


and as far as equal goes as far as rations, is it close in effect to Kalkwasser? For instance once you have alk and cal where you want it via individual dosing, can you rely on this to keep them both as if you were doing Kalk? When I had used Kalkwasser before, I’d check alk 3-4 times a week, and calcium once, and for the most part they fell in line.

outside if not being able to make individual corrections with it, how would you treat this differently then your own two Part? Those didn’t incorporate trace minerals or mag, so
I imagine this would be similar in that you test mag every so often and add mag when needed? Would hope water change weekly of 25 percent would keep other traces replenished.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Corals do not have "access" to the alkalinity until bacteria convert the organic chemical formate into bicarbonate. First use the conversion may take longer as the right bacteria may not be there in abundance. In normal use, I'd expect it to be available without hours, maybe by next day. I've never seen anyone show data.

The relative effect on calcium and alkalinity is in approximately the right ratio and similar to kalkwasser, but it has no pH raising effect.

I can't comment on the trace element aspect of it, since I am not sure what is in it, but in general, such products aren't intended to replace the need for supplements.

 

[Wildreefs]

Gotcha.

my tank is about 4-5 months old. Is it possible I don’t have the bacteria needed yet to break down alkalinity and make it usable? Thus any I put in there is useless?

And as far as trace, would using this, and supplementing magnesium when needed and water changes sound like a plan to help replenish the trace stuff?

sorta similar to when I used your diy recipe 1 for alk and cal. Still did water changes and dosed magnesium every so often to keep up with stuff not cal or alk.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

It will be absolutely fine, it's totally different from two-part and there is much less chance of you causing alk swings with carbocalcium. As it takes a day or two for the alk to become available you get far less of a drastic change then you do with two part. My alk was never stable until I started using this product. I will never go back to two-part. It is like a dream come true. Just had the recommended amount and gradually up the dose until your alk stabilises where you want it. Its that simple. You are really over thinking this.

I think people are more interested in this product because Salifert All In One works out much more expensive than the powdered version of this and has a much greater carbon dosing effect.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It will be absolutely fine, it's totally different from two-part and there is much less chance of you causing alk swings with carbocalcium. As it takes a day or two for the alk to become available you get far less of a drastic change then you do with two part. My alk was never stable until I started using this product. I will never go back to two-part. It is like a dream come true. Just had the recommended amount and gradually up the dose until your alk stabilises where you want it. Its that simple. You are really over thinking this.

I accept that you like it and are happy with it,a nd I think its a fine product. I can't see the rationale for more stability, however.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I accept that you like it and are happy with it,a nd I think its a fine product. I can't see the rationale for more stability, however.

I started off trying to use the redsea system with their alkalinity, calcium and magnesium solutions. Being a newbie I was far too overzealous with the dosing and caused massive swings in alkalinity which is very easy to do. I also did not really understand what I was doing. My corals were all burnt tips and receding.

I then tried ATI essentials Pro two-part as it seemed easier to understand since you add equal parts of each and all should be good. So I set up a dosing pump tried dosing 3 times daily. My alk would swing up and then down and up again. I was then advised to split my dosing up into many smaller doses over the 24h period. I diligently programmed my dosing pump to do that but found my alk just skyrocketed so I reduced it and it sunk again, tired upping again and it swung up too much again.

My sand started to go hard and my SPS were all but dead by this point. Found it a total nightmare TBH. Just could not dial it in and think two-part is just too dangerous for newbies that don't understand anything about water chemistry.

With carbocalcium it is a lot harder to do what I did above you just need to work out how much you need and add your amount once per day and it will stabilise. If you don't add enough it will slowly lower your alk and if you add a little more it will slowly increase it. I just need to test once or twice a week and adjust the dosage by a mil or two to keep to my chosen 8 dkh. I am growing Acropora and all kinds of SPS now, dont think i would have managed that wit two-part.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With carbocalcium it is a lot harder to do what I did above you just need to work out how much you need and add your amount once per day and it will stabilise. If you don't add enough it will slowly lower your alk and if you add a little more it will slowly increase it. I just need to test once or twice a week and adjust the dosage by a mil or two to keep to my chosen 8 dkh. I am growing Acropora and all kinds of SPS now, dont think i would have managed that wit two-part.

That is EXACTLY how you should have used a two part. lol

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

what add your daily dose in one go? Wouldn't that just cause a big spike? Part of my problem was I had a 70L nano at the time and it was to easy to over do it. I did try kalkwasser and then Salifert all in one and had some success with those but carbocalcium works out to be the best option for this type of dosing for me.

 

[Wildreefs]

That is how I intend on using it, if I lose .5 a day, replace .5 a day, and adjust dose based on needs, like a 2 part.

my concern is if my alk is 7.2 now, and my corals are used to 8, can I dose it in and count on them being able to use it readily quickly, or will it drop into the 6’s by the time it becomes available.

Or is it like waiting for a check to clear, funds posted but not available for 3 business days lol

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

Once you dose it, your alk won't drop any more unless you're not adding enough. Once you start dosing it every day there is like a steady stream of alk becoming available to your corals even if it is a day behind on the first day. Like I say you are way overthinking this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

what add your daily dose in one go? Wouldn't that just cause a big spike? Part of my problem was I had a 70L nano at the time and it was to easy to over do it. I did try kalkwasser and then Salifert all in one and had some success with those but carbocalcium works out to be the best option for this type of dosing for me.

Depends on your dose, and also on your assumption that the time smoothing of the formate degradation is useful. Is it better at add 2 dKH over 2 h (via formate degradation) than all at once with a two part? Do you know how long for formate takes to degrade in your tank?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is how I intend on using it, if I lose .5 a day, replace .5 a day, and adjust dose based on needs, like a 2 part.

my concern is if my alk is 7.2 now, and my corals are used to 8, can I dose it in and count on them being able to use it readily quickly, or will it drop into the 6’s by the time it becomes available.

Or is it like waiting for a check to clear, funds posted but not available for 3 business days lol

The statements by Lou (Tropic Marin) are that once established, the degradation time is not that long as the degradation is not multi days.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Once you dose it, your alk won't drop any more unless you're not adding enough. Once you start dosing it every day there is like a steady stream of alk becoming available to your corals even if it is a day behind on the first day. Like I say you are way overthinking this.

I agree folks may be overthinking it, but I think you are assuming somehow that the degradation rate matches the consumption rate. It might all become alk in 2 h.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

Depends on your dose, and also on your assumption that the time smoothing of the formate degradation is useful. Is it better at add 2 dKH over 2 h (via formate degradation) than all at once with a two part? Do you know how long for formate takes to degrade in your tank?

Surely it must be better since it will have less of a shock impact on the corals? I am not sure exactly but I know that if I add some carbocalcium and then test 24h later I see there has been a mild increase in alkalinity.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I agree folks may be overthinking it, but I think you are assuming somehow that the degradation rate matches the consumption rate. It might all become alk in 2 h.

Can you explain in layman's terms how to use two-part properly?

For example, some people say you need to spread the doses out as evenly as possible over the 24h period so that the tank has a constantly stable supply. This is hard with a Jeboa dosing pump lol. But then I read once a day is enough.

Another point that is not clear to me is that some people say the point in two-part is that you can use each part individually according to consumption but then I read that two-part should never be dosed in unequal amounts, which is it? And then you have a system like Redsea's where it's all dosed individually and has some crazy 3 to one ratio.

The Right Way to Use 2-Part Additives

Nearly 20 years ago a company called E.S.V invented a product called B-ionic. This was a product that came in two bottles that replenished both calcium and alkalinity in their natural, ionic balanc…

joejaworski.wordpress.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you explain in layman's terms how to use two-part properly?

For example, some people say you need to spread the doses out as evenly as possible over the 24h period so that the tank has a constantly stable supply. This is hard with a Jeboa dosing pump lol. But then I read once a day is enough.

Another point that is not clear to me is that some people say the point in two-part is that you can use each part individually according to consumption but then I read that two-part should never be dosed in unequal amounts which is it? And then you have a system like Redsea's where it's all dosed individually and has some crazy 3 to one ratio.

The Right Way to Use 2-Part Additives

Nearly 20 years ago a company called E.S.V invented a product called B-ionic. This was a product that came in two bottles that replenished both calcium and alkalinity in their natural, ionic balanc…

joejaworski.wordpress.com

Depends on the dose and how concerned you are about changes in alk.

If alkalinity stability is the highest goal (it isn't always), the either spreading out the dosing through they daylight hours or automated dosing based on automatic measurement of alk is the way to go. The higher the daily alk dose, the more useful is spreading it out. At 0.5 dKH per day or less, it is not nearly as important as at 3 dKH per day.

This is my general advice for my DIY two/three part recipe:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
Dosing Instructions
The dosing instructions are basically the same for each recipe, although any given aquarium will end up using about twice as much of recipe #2 as recipe #1 to add the same amount of calcium and alkalinity.

To initiate dosing, first adjust calcium and alkalinity to roughly their correct ranges. This may require a substantial dose of just the calcium part if calcium is low (e.g., below 380 ppm). I would suggest targeting calcium between 380 and 450 ppm, and alkalinity between 2.5 and 4 meq/L (7-11 dKH; 125-200 ppm calcium carbonate equivalents).

This calculator shows how much of what parts to add in order to boost one or both of the parameters by a certain amount:
Reef chemicals calculator

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

Then, once things seem roughly correct, select a starting daily dose for routine dosing. Here are some suggested starting doses, but the exact values do not matter much. The suggested doses apply to both recipes.

After a few days of dosing, note whether alkalinity is low, high or on target. Only bother to test alkalinity, not calcium, during this period, because it is much more sensitive than calcium to over- or underdosing. Adjust the dose up or down as necessary to increase or decrease the alkalinity.

Once you have determined the proper dose, continue it until there is a substantial reason to adjust it (such as falling alkalinity as the corals increase in size). When adjusting the dose, raise or lower both of the recipe's parts together.

Resist the temptation to keep jiggering calcium and alkalinity independently. They will need occasional corrections, but that should not be the normal course of dosing unless there are substantial outside influences, such as water changes with a salt mix that does not match the tank's parameters or an error in making the mixes.

Check alkalinity fairly frequently to make sure the dosing continues at a suitable rate. Check it maybe once a week to once a month (or less as you get more experienced with the system and the tank). Check calcium once a month to once every few months to make sure it continues on track.

Remember to add an appropriate amount of Part 3 each time you finish adding a gallon of Parts 1 and 2 (or more often with smaller portions if the tank is small or you want to even out magnesium to a greater extent).