Carbocalcium question

[hart24601]

Ok Randy, how is this possible? Tropic Marin has a new product. 2 part in 1 product that you only have to add a few ml of. I didn't think this was possible. 1L said to contain as much ca and alk as your 2 part does in 1 gallon and have them in one solution unless I read your 2part article wrong.


Tropic Marin Carbocalcium, Liquid Buffer and new test kit for your hardness and pH needs

Copy and paste google translated page:

Product Description
Calcium and KH ultra concentrated for advanced reef aquarium
With Tropic Marin ^® CALCIUM CARBO can be covered with a single solution ofcalcium and carbonate-all requirements of a typical reef aquarium, without undesired additional connections or excess carbon dioxide produced.
With the growth of the organisms and other processes in the aquarium minerals are consumed and must be updated regularly. These mainly include calcium carbonate and formers for the growth of calcium carbonate skeletons of corals, coralline algae and other reef organisms. The specific coordinated components in CARBO CALCIUM provide best care conditions with only one solution.
Tropic Marin ^® CALCIUM CARBO avoids all side effects of other methods of Kalkaufhärtung: the pH remains stable; There will be no excess of CO _2, and there is no danger that over crushed coral undesired phosphates are introduced. In addition, there is neither a creeping Salinitätsanstieg, nor to increased oxygen consumption by carbon compounds.
Product Benefits
- For the first time, the calcium and Karbonatzufuhr possible with only one solution.
- Daily rich few ml of highly concentrated solutions to satisfy
total calcium and carbonate hardness requirement.
- Suitable for all pool sizes.
- No formation of by-products (eg sodium chloride); the salinity and the ion balance can not be changed.
- No formation of excess carbon dioxide.
- Suitable for aquariums stocking with soft corals, LPS, SPS and / or other filter.
- Easy to use - both for manual dosing and for dosing pumps suitable.
Ingredients
Tropic Marin® CALCIUM CARBO contains organic calcium salts.
1000 ml CALCIUM CARBO supply the aquarium with 40,000 mg of calcium and 5600 ° carbonate hardness.

Application and Dosage
Start achieve with a daily dose of 5 ml per 100 liters of aquarium CALCIUM CARBOvolume and increase the daily dosage control of carbonate week to 2.5 ml per 100 liters of aquarium volume to a constant carbonate hardness 7-9 ° dH. Also check the calcium concentration in the aquarium at the same time - this should be between 400-440 mg / l.
A maximum daily dose of 25 ml per 100 liters of aquarium CALCIUM CARBO volume should not be exceeded.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They have chelated the calcium to prevent precipitation. EDTA will do that, but corals won't get it either, so I'm not sure exactly what they chelated it with or how desirable (or undesirable) these organics are in the tank.

FWIW, the organic chelators may act as an organic carbon source.

Salifert has an all in one that is calcium acetate. It doesn't sound like this product, but companies often don't give understandable descriptions speicifically to prevent knock offs.

 

[hart24601]

So the bacteria will consume the organics that will free the calcium to become available to the tank? It doesn't seem like they would sell something that would be totally useless, but maybe they are!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The thing they have going for them is the slow consumption rate of calcium. So perhaps it works out for that reason.

If the half life of the chelator bound to the calcium is a week, then it isn't useful for that week, but will be after that. If real, available calcium drops from 420 ppm to 400 ppm even when total calcium is 420 ppm, that's no big deal. Anyway, those are made up numbers, but shows how it might work.

 

[Larry Hillman]

Randy. Can you please provide some guidance on the pros and cons of 2 part dosing versus the 1 part products like Tropic Marin's CarboCalcium and Saliferts "All-In-One"? Is one method better than the other?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Actually, on rereadign this thread just now, it occurred to me even before I read your post that it may be a product similar to Salifert All IN One, which is calcium acetate. I discuss the pros and cons of that type of product here:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/the-many-methods-for-supplementing-calcium-and-alkalinity

from it:

One-part balanced additive systems: Calcium Acetate

Calcium acetate is a product that has gotten relatively little publicity despite its apparent ease of use and the commercial availability to aquarists. In some ways it is similar to the combination of limewater and vinegar. When dissolved in water (fresh or salt), you have calcium ions and acetate ions. The acetate is rapidly metabolized by tank organisms to form bicarbonate, carbon dioxide, and water:

CH3CO2– (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3– + CO2 + H2O

This equation suggests that pH of such tanks may stay near the low end of normal, because of the excess carbon dioxide, but the practical experience of people using calcium acetate suggests that this is not a big concern.

Calcium acetate will also facilitate the growth of bacteria and the reduction of nutrients in systems, similar to that with folks dosing vinegar or vodka for that purpose. It will also facilitate conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas (N2) in anoxic regions of live sand and rock by providing the carbon source necessary for the process. The equation below shows the process that could take place:

5 CH3CO2– (acetate) + 8 NO3– → 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH– + H2O

One of the sources of calcium acetate available to aquarists is Salifert’s All in One (a product that also contains some strontium, amino acids, and some trace elements). It is a liquid product that can be poured directly into a tank with no immediate concerns about pH. The current version of their commercial product is 250,000-mg/L calcium acetate, so it contains the equivalent of 3,160 meq/L of alkalinity. This product sells in the US for about $45/L. Consequently, it costs about $14 per thousand meq/L of alkalinity. That price makes it very expensive for an aquarium with a large demand for calcium and alkalinity, but the zero equipment cost (unless you automate it with a dosing pump) makes it attractive for small aquaria, especially nano-reef tanks.

I have no information on the purity of the material, or the exact nature of the “trace elements” in it. Everything in the bottle will be delivered to the tank. It poses no unusual safety concerns. The upper limit to how much calcium and alkalinity can be supplied to a tank in this fashion depends on two factors. If the metabolism of acetate is rapid and the dose is very high, oxygen might be depleted. If the conversion is slow then acetate can build up in the tank (not itself a significant concern except perhaps at very high levels where it might confound an alkalinity test). Habib Sekha of Salifert has indicated that using the doses recommended on the bottle will not lead to either of these issues being problematic.

Overdosing is not expected to be an unusual problem, but if one makes significant additions in this fashion, the alkalinity will take time to show up completely in the tank because the acetate takes time to be metabolized. Consequently, I’d wait a day after adding it to measure alkalinity. Calcium measurement won’t be similarly impacted. Tank salinity will not increase over time using calcium acetate.

 

[Larry Hillman]

Excellent article (as always)! You cover the chemistry, costs and complexity of the various dosing options. Are there any empirical studies on the effectiveness?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Excellent article (as always)! You cover the chemistry, costs and complexity of the various dosing options. Are there any empirical studies on the effectiveness?

I've not seen any comparative data on how well each of the methods works (I suspect the differences are minor), but there are top notch tanks using all of the big methods (CaCO3/CO2 reactors, two parts, and limewater). There are fewer aquaria using the other methods, so its hard to say how they compare, but I expect a good aquarist can make any of them work well.