Carbon dosing vs GFO/Media

[terraincognita]

My Phosphate have been on the rise for the last couple week, so looking to update/increase my export.

Currently on a 45G AIO. I've got no sump and no plans to add one to the AIO, no Fuge, running Skimmerless.

My PHO's been betweeen .2 and .18. Trying to get it under .1 (edit for wrong decimal position)

Been using Chemipure Elite, Carbon, and occasionally Pho Guard.

Been studying up on Nopox, since no sump no plans to try to change that or add in any reactors.

Wondering about other peoples experience with Liquid Carbon dosing (I know I can use Vodka and Vinegar also) and why they may go with Liquid vs a media like PhoGuard, or PhosFX from Blue Life.

Any stories/cons/pros and the decisions on what you do for carbon dosing/ Phosphate removal would be great.

Thanks!

 

[Spare time]

Do NOT carbon dose without a skimmer. Carbon dosing fuels bacterial growth in the water column that is then removed via skimming. Without skimming, the bacteria can can massive drops in oxygen via a bloom.


If phosphate is the only concern, just run some phosphate media. You can even mix gfo and carbon in a bag (this knocks phosphates out pretty rapidly. Phosguard, gfo, etc. will also work. GFO is by far the strongest from my experience.

 

[terraincognita]

Do NOT carbon dose without a skimmer. Carbon dosing fuels bacterial growth in the water column that is then removed via skimming. Without skimming, the bacteria can can massive drops in oxygen via a bloom.


If phosphate is the only concern, just run some phosphate media. You can even mix gfo and carbon in a bag (this knocks phosphates out pretty rapidly. Phosguard, gfo, etc. will also work. GFO is by far the strongest from my experience.

Thanks for the response.

I'm always open to different idea on this, however I've read of several reefers that have carbon dosed without skimmers for years.

I think it's a matter of which liquid, and certainly how much and other factors in the tank, such as maturity as well as overall water agitation and other filtration means.

even @Randy Holmes-Farley has commented on it being doable. It's a matter of doing it right.

I've been running Phoguard with Carbon, I can increase the amounts, but I feel like it's something that I will have to constantly worry about/check Maybe it last 1 month, maybe it last 3 weeks, maybe 5 weeks? and I feel possible varying results every time with it.

Also the inability to control it so much and possibly depleting too much phosphate and causing other problems .

Maybe I'm overthinking it though Dunno.

 

[terraincognita]

Reading much more on this, Seems maybe it's just not necessarily the removal by skimmer but possibly the fact that skimmer also oxidize the water whereas without a skimmer the bacteria ends up eating all the oxygen.

My agitation is probably higher than most due to my set up, or maybe simply adding an air stone to the rear chamber would combat this effect.




Willing to hear others thoughts and opinions on this.

 

[terraincognita]

well I'm gonna go for it anyway.

Here goes 2ML.

Maybe this is an excuse to go buy some filter feeders like a clam or some nice Gorgs Maybe a Sea Cucumber

 

[Spare time]

Thanks for the response.

I'm always open to different idea on this, however I've read of several reefers that have carbon dosed without skimmers for years.

I think it's a matter of which liquid, and certainly how much and other factors in the tank, such as maturity as well as overall water agitation and other filtration means.

even @Randy Holmes-Farley has commented on it being doable. It's a matter of doing it right.

I've been running Phoguard with Carbon, I can increase the amounts, but I feel like it's something that I will have to constantly worry about/check Maybe it last 1 month, maybe it last 3 weeks, maybe 5 weeks? and I feel possible varying results every time with it.

Also the inability to control it so much and possibly depleting too much phosphate and causing other problems .

Maybe I'm overthinking it though Dunno.

There are ways to carbon dose without a skimmer but from my assumption is that it requires the coral to feed on the bacterioplankton rather than it being skimmed out (based off of what Tropic Marin's Lou discussed in an interview on their carbon dosing line up as to why he likes carbon dosing). However, having crashed a tank and had several customers kill all of their fish from carbon dosing (in my case my skimmer stopped skimming properly and it was early on in my reefing career; there cases were overdosing and their skimmer not being able to remove all of the bacteria effectively because there was so much), I can't recommend doing so without a skimmer unless you have a field of bacterioplankton eating corals. Red sea even says not to use nopox without skimmers.

Besides that, carbon dosing is not very effective at drastically lowering phosphates, especially when nitrate is already much lower).

 

[terraincognita]

There are ways to carbon dose without a skimmer but from my assumption is that it requires the coral to feed on the bacterioplankton rather than it being skimmed out (based off of what Tropic Marin's Lou discussed in an interview on their carbon dosing line up as to why he likes carbon dosing). However, having crashed a tank and had several customers kill all of their fish from carbon dosing (in my case my skimmer stopped skimming properly and it was early on in my reefing career; there cases were overdosing and their skimmer not being able to remove all of the bacteria effectively because there was so much), I can't recommend doing so without a skimmer unless you have a field of bacterioplankton eating corals. Red sea even says not to use nopox without skimmers.

Besides that, carbon dosing is not very effective at drastically lowering phosphates, especially when nitrate is already much lower).

Well,

Nothing drastic happened yet.

I see no reason not to experiment and see how it goes, since 2ML of NoPox had no major effects, I'll keep up the 2ML dosing and see where it takes me with eagle eye monitoring.

I'll do daily tests every morning and see how it goes re: Pho.

I'm not going for any drastic reduction, just .08 or so, idk maybe that is drastic numbers in dealing with Phos?

We'll see.

I do like that carbon dosing itself is contributing to coral health, even if there's no big studies or research yet on how much, or how important, regardless of Pho handlings reading more on it, definitely something I'd probably end up wanting to add into my routines somehow anyway.

 

[Deep]

Well,

Nothing drastic happened yet.

I see no reason not to experiment and see how it goes, since 2ML of NoPox had no major effects, I'll keep up the 2ML dosing and see where it takes me with eagle eye monitoring.

I'll do daily tests every morning and see how it goes re: Pho.

I'm not going for any drastic reduction, just .08 or so, idk maybe that is drastic numbers in dealing with Phos?

We'll see.

I do like that carbon dosing itself is contributing to coral health, even if there's no big studies or research yet on how much, or how important, regardless of Pho handlings reading more on it, definitely something I'd probably end up wanting to add into my routines somehow anyway.

well good luck then.... Carbon dosing is method for removal of nitrates/phosphates. So unless you have a way of removing the bacteria consuming the carbon from the tank, it wont help with phosphate reduction. So not sure about the hypothesis behind your experiment here..
I am assuming you are aware of phosphates leeching from substrate and how that can impact your measurements even if you are truly removing phosphates from the tank.

 

[Big E]

If you aren't using a skimmer than your next best bet would be one of those rolling filter units. Or for cheap a sock but you'd have to pull it daily.

You may not harm anything but your going to get poor results without a skimmer. I wouldn't even bother carbon dosing without one.

Also, keep in mind long term most carbon dosing setups end up having to use GFO anyways, because it's way more efficient at reducing nitrate.

You may be able to get a handle on keeping P04 level by dosing MB7 or a similar type bacteria. If you just carbon dose without dosing the bacteria you have little to no chance of controlling p04.

Best starting option is to knock the P04 down to a range you like and then induce the carbon dosing to keep it level. This will take some experimenting on dosing amounts for bacteria and carbon. Figure 2-3 months to get a handle on it.

These type of systems work best on BB tanks(speed) and also as the only export system.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, organic carbon dosing is typically more effective at nitrate reduction than phosphate reduction because it drives denitrification that uses nitrate and not phosphate.

Many people, including myself, used GFO along with organic carbon dosing for that reason.

 

[terraincognita]

Well,

it’s doing something.

 

[terraincognita]

well good luck then.... Carbon dosing is method for removal of nitrates/phosphates. So unless you have a way of removing the bacteria consuming the carbon from the tank, it wont help with phosphate reduction. So not sure about the hypothesis behind your experiment here..
I am assuming you are aware of phosphates leeching from substrate and how that can impact your measurements even if you are truly removing phosphates from the tank.

I think so? But elaborate.

I'm running GFO already, this is a small addition to what I'm doing. Just wanted to do something besides "add more GFO"


Appreciate all the responses, but I was always the child who would touch the hot stove. Not because I didn't believe it was hot. I just wanted to know how hot is it really?

 

[terraincognita]

If you aren't using a skimmer than your next best bet would be one of those rolling filter units. Or for cheap a sock but you'd have to pull it daily.

You may not harm anything but your going to get poor results without a skimmer. I wouldn't even bother carbon dosing without one.

Also, keep in mind long term most carbon dosing setups end up having to use GFO anyways, because it's way more efficient at reducing nitrate.

You may be able to get a handle on keeping P04 level by dosing MB7 or a similar type bacteria. If you just carbon dose without dosing the bacteria you have little to no chance of controlling p04.

Best starting option is to knock the P04 down to a range you like and then induce the carbon dosing to keep it level. This will take some experimenting on dosing amounts for bacteria and carbon. Figure 2-3 months to get a handle on it.

These type of systems work best on BB tanks(speed) and also as the only export system.

I'm running 2 Filter socks. I change them every 3 days.

It's the JBJ 45AIO so the back chambers are nice. It goes through 2 filter socks, and then through my bio media on the left side, and carbon/GFO on the right. One thing I hate about AIO's is that whole concept how only half of the water returning gets what it should be getting, but gotta do what I can with an AIO.

I change the filter socks every 3 days. I did read that super high micron filter socks may cause more problems. But Again I'm experimenting on my own to see how everything goes.

I was dosing MB7 for a Cyano bloom month back, it kind of helped? I can try it with Carbon dosing, but I'll see how just the NoPox goes for now.

 

[terraincognita]

FWIW, organic carbon dosing is typically more effective at nitrate reduction than phosphate reduction because it drives denitrification that uses nitrate and not phosphate.

Many people, including myself, used GFO along with organic carbon dosing for that reason.

When you say Organic. I imagine you mean vinegar/Vodka instead of a product?

 

[Big E]

I'm running 2 Filter socks. I change them every 3 days.

It's the JBJ 45AIO so the back chambers are nice. It goes through 2 filter socks, and then through my bio media on the left side, and carbon/GFO on the right. One thing I hate about AIO's is that whole concept how only half of the water returning gets what it should be getting, but gotta do what I can with an AIO.

I change the filter socks every 3 days. I did read that super high micron filter socks may cause more problems. But Again I'm experimenting on my own to see how everything goes.

I was dosing MB7 for a Cyano bloom month back, it kind of helped? I can try it with Carbon dosing, but I'll see how just the NoPox goes for now.

Pulling the sock daily was my guess for best results and how a skimmer would pull P04 laden bacteria fairly quickly. You may be catching some at the 3 day swap as the bacteria may have not all died and released it back into the system.

If you can try to pull some water after your GFO before it goes back into the system that will give you a good idea how much you're pulling out vs what your system it reading.

 

[terraincognita]

If you can try to pull some water after your GFO before it goes back into the system that will give you a good idea how much you're pulling out vs what your system it reading.

I gotcha, so pull it from the rear chambers rather than the tank when testing?

I didn't realize that it would be noticeable like that.

I can try that for sure.

Reading this morning still .15, dosed another 2ML y/day no change.

Water looks maybe 1μg clearear .

No noticeable difference in any corals.

2 New frags coloring up nice, but I don't think that's correlated to carbon dosing, Think just being in my system.

 

[terraincognita]

Crept back to .18

Added Blue Life PhoRX and it did absolutely positively nothing in the last 24 hours.

Not sure if it takes awhile? But I don't think it should lol.

still at .18 this morning.

*sigh. Might go grab some phoguard this weekend.

Overall gonna keep up the 2ML of nopox though as I’m seeing overall happier Tank syndrome. Hard to really say after 4 days, but seeing minute differences.

 

[Biologic]

Hey I am using a AIO with a HOB skimmer. Why not just get a skimmer? It's so much easier. I tried running this AIO without, nutrient values got drastically got better when I put a skimmer on.

Filter Socks work, which you can use temporarily to reduce the values.

Controlling how much you feed works well too.

Or go with a chaetoreactor!

 

[terraincognita]

Hey I am using a AIO with a HOB skimmer. Why not just get a skimmer? It's so much easier. I tried running this AIO without, nutrient values got drastically got better when I put a skimmer on.

Filter Socks work, which you can use temporarily to reduce the values.

Controlling how much you feed works well too.

Or go with a chaetoreactor!

I've got a Reef Octo Skimmer I paid a pretty penny for.

Unfortunately my upgrade plans were all squished .

This isn't my forever tank. So trying to just live with it for 1-2 years until I really get what I want, without investing hundreds more. I've already thrown about 5-6K at this dang tank. I'm not spending anymore on equipment lol.

Was thinking about a HOB Fuge, but also the way my tank is positioned any HOB i buy will really be Hang On Side.....

 

[terraincognita]

Did find a guy making custom PVC overflows.

I may end up buying one for $40 and just getting the sump I'll use for my upgrade now also.

I'd make my own DIY pvc overflow but I dont trust my handy work on first times around. Even though they seem ez as pie.

we'll see. For now though even at .18 to .15 things are thriving.

If it becomes a much larger issue I'll attack it with the full force of a hurricane.