Carbon Dosing with AFR Questions

[Fish Fan]

Hey all! I'm sorry in advance that this turned into such a long post, but I have been (I'm sure) overthinking all this for the better part of a week or so

I'm posting in regard to my newly setup 25 gallon AIO, and looking to learn more about carbon dosing, which is something that's honestly quite new to me. I've gone in and out of the reefing hobby, and back in about 2005 or so I had a 125 gallon tank and I remember I was adding vodka, but I honestly had no idea what I was doing. Today, I know just enough about carbon dosing to be dangerous

After running for several months now, and even though I am feeding almost nothing (I have no fish here; I've only used a couple pinches of Reef Roids, and very recently only occasionally some meaty foods as I have added a couple small crabs and hermits to aid with hair algae (now largely gone, so target feeding the critters)), I am seeing high nitrates (today was about 50 ppm), yet reasonable phosphates (0.05 ppm), so I think this tank would be a good candidate for dealing with the nitrate by carbon dosing (which I believe has less of an effect on phosphate removal??).

With the goal of carbon dosing in mind, I did add the IM NuvoSkim skimmer just tonight, I am concerned that this little skimmer may not be enough to remove the bacteria from the carbon dosing. Would anyone be able to comment this skimmer's efficacy here?

I've recently decided to use All For Reef to maintain major and minor elements on this tank, that I hope to stock with relatively easy to keep stoney corals. I have about 7 small frags now, so at this point very, very low demand, but I'm hoping to add more over the July 4th holiday sales. I like the AFR product because it's essentially a 1-part that also has trace elements. I know that AFR will cause a bacterial bloom, which can reduce available oxygen in the tank, and for that reason I plan on dosing the AFR sometime around mid-morning, after the lights have come on for an hour or two.

My second question is that I know that carbon dosing will obviously cause a bacterial bloom, so when would you guys suggest that I add the carbon dose, considering I'm also dosing AFR at mid-morning? I don't expect to need many mL's of either at this time, could I dose them both at mid morning, or should I break this up somehow?

I know some dose vodka and some dose vinegar, and some do a combination of vinager and vodka. What does one do that the other does not? Is there a benefit to combining both? In one of the dozen or so videos I have recently watched, Lou Ekus suggested that long chain organic molecules would largely (but not exclusively) foster the growth of the good bacteria we want, and would do less for the nuisance organisms that would also benefit from an organic carbon source added to the tank. Is this true? I'm dusting off my very rusty Minor in Chem and both acetic acid and ethyl alcohol have a two carbon chain. Is there another organic with more carbons that would be better to dose?

Which leads me to; I'm not at all a Tropic Marin fan boy, but I have noticed they seem to have A LOT of products designed for carbon dosing. Some have carbon, some remove nitrate and phosphate, some I believe remove nitrate and phosphate, but then also contain nitrate and phosphate so your system doesn't bottom out, which I just can't wrap my head around?? I mean, wouldn't the answer be to dose less of your carbon source, so the nitrate and phosphate don't bottom out?? My question here is, do these Tropic Marin products do anything I can't do with vinegar and/or vodka? Do you guys here at R2R put any stock in these TM products?

I believe I have read where some R2R members will dose a combination of vinegar and vodka, which is obviously an acidic solution. My tank's pH does run a bit low at about 7.9, and I know for a fact that many of the R2R members I respect most don't worry about their pH, and will often run at a low pH, and clearly they have great results. But, I believe I've read that some people will add a bit of Kalk powder to their vodka/vinegar concoction to raise the pH of the solution. I hate the idea of adding an acidic solution to a tank that's already a little low for pH. Am I correct in thinking that people do use Kalk to raise the pH of the carbon dosing solution, and if so, would you suggest I use just enough Kalk to bring the solution to a pH of about 8.3 or so, or would you go right to a fully saturated Kalk solution? I would really like to max out the Kalk in this situation to give my tank at least a little pH bump, but I don't want to add so much Kalkwasser that I counter the All For Reef, which again I'd like to be my primary method of maintaining alk/calc/mag as well as trace elements.

Last, I've just received what I need to automate the dosing of both AFR and a carbon solution, I hope to have that operable in a few days to a week.

Friends, I am so sorry this post is so long, but I have been rattling these questions around my tiny brain case for too long. If any of you could address even some of my concerns I would really appreciate it

Thank you in advance for your help!

 

[rishma]

You win the prize for longest post today.

I also keep a 25 gallon tank and the products you mention so I’ll share my thoughts. I’ll try to hit your questions in order.

Carbon dosing like vodka or vinegar does have a greater impact on nitrate than phosphate.

I am not familiar with that skimmer, but I use a small Tunze 9001 and it works great with carbon dosing. It’s not powerful. You don’t need anything special. If it skims, i believe it will work.

I dose AFR and carbon dose in the morning after the lights come on. The full dose of both. I think they happen at nearly the same time. The carbon dosing effect of AFR is pretty small unless the dose is big.

The value of vodka vs vinegar vs both is debatable. It could very well be nothing.

I use TM carbon dosing products like NP bacto balance. I doubt the claims it targets so-called good bacteria with certain molecules. I Iike the product a lot, I’ve used it for years. I’ve been able to keep both nitrate and phosphate stable much more easily, long term, than I could with vodka/vinegar. Their addition of nitrogen and phosphorus in the carbon dosing solution has been effective at maintaining balance in my tank. I like carbon dosing in part because I like the idea of bacteria in the water column as food for the corals. This is part of the logic for including nutrients in their product. Also, it’s not expensive at all for a 25 gallon tank…one bottle lasts forever.

Carbon dosing does suppress pH a bit due to higher CO2 ( acidity in the case of vinegar). Kalkwasser can help offset this a little. I dose Kalkwasser in addition to my AFR. I’ve used Kalk for decades and just like it. It’s not a wholistic solution for managing pH. You are limited by your evaporation and your alkalinity demand (which is partially taken up by AFR). You’ll likely need other solutions methods if you want to raise pH.

A tip for future posts. Make your questions stand out or put them at the top. I had to read your post 3 times

 

[Fish Fan]

You win the prize for longest post today.

I did, I get it, and I thank you for your reply!

I'm still reading it, but you had me made right off the top lol!

Thank you for your help here!

 

[Miami Reef]

You can make saturated calcium hydroxide with vinegar. It will raise Alk and Ca a little depending on the dose.

Add enough Calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser) powder to the bottle of vinegar until you have an undissolved portion on the bottom. That’s how you know it’s fully saturated.

It will redissolve when you add more vinegar. Dose the clear portion on top.

 

[rishma]

It should reduce 50% of its pH reducing effects.

I learned something new today! I knew it would help directionally, but was not sure how much.

Now I want to know the calcium and alkalinity content of the solution…because it’s the chemistry forum

 

[Fish Fan]

A tip for future posts. Make your questions stand out or put them at the top. I had to read your post 3 times

Thank you so much for your reply and help! I know, I'm a typer, I try hard to be succinct, but this is how it comes out

Carbon dosing like vodka or vinegar does have a greater impact on nitrate than phosphate.

Thank you for confirming!

I am not familiar with that skimmer, but I use a small Tunze 9001 and it works great with carbon dosing. It’s not powerful. You don’t need anything special. If it skims, i believe it will work.

Both I think are small skimmers. I was previously unaware that carbon dosing relied on both the gas exchange a skimmer provides, but also the skimming if the bacteria. I added this skimmer, I hope it can work well for my needs.

I dose AFR and carbon dose in the morning after the lights come on. The full dose of both. I think they happen at nearly the same time. The carbon dosing effect of AFR is pretty small unless the dose is big.

I think at least at first I won't nee much of either product, so I believe adding them both mid-morning would be a good idea.

The value of vodka vs vinegar vs both is debatable. It could very well be nothing.

I've read about so many R2R members making a combined solution, but again my very dusty Chem minor sees no benefit either way. I just wanted to be sure I'm not missing something, or that there a better carbon source to be dosing.

I use TM carbon dosing products like NP bacto balance. I doubt the claims it targets so-called good bacteria with certain molecules. I Iike the product a lot, I’ve used it for years. I’ve been able to keep both nitrate and phosphate stable much more easily, long term, than I could with vodka/vinegar. Their addition of nitrogen and phosphorus in the carbon dosing solution has been effective at maintaining balance in my tank. I like carbon dosing in part because I like the idea of bacteria in the water column as food for the corals. This is part of the logic for including nutrients in their product. Also, it’s not expensive at all for a 25 gallon tank…one bottle lasts forever.

Yes, I know and should have mentioned that carbon dosing is a food source for corals, that's a huge reason I'm exploring it now, not just the reduction of nitrates. I'm still not getting a product that removes so much nitrogen and phosphates that it needs to contain them, but maybe I'm not understanding what's going on here. Would you mind letting me know what specific TM cabin dosing products you're using?

Carbon dosing does suppress pH a bit due to higher CO2 ( acidity in the case of vinegar). Kalkwasser can help offset this a little. I dose Kalkwasser in addition to my AFR. I’ve used Kalk for decades and just like it. It’s not a wholistic solution for managing pH. You are limited by your evaporation and your alkalinity demand (which is partially taken up by AFR). You’ll likely need other solutions if you want to raise pH.

I do get the limitations of adding Kalkwasser by drip (which is how I tried it years ago), verses using something like a Kal stirrer. However, I am just looking to offset the acid with vinager dosing, and to possible bump my pH just a bit. I'm not looking to add so much Kalkwasser that I am no longer relying on the AFR for most of what I need. I hope this makes sense

I also keep a 25 gallon tank and the products you mention so I’ll share my thoughts. I’ll try to hit your questions in A tip for future posts. Make your questions stand out or put them at the top. I had to read your post 3 times

You don't even know how long it took me to type out lol! But agree, my post is far too long, I'll try to break them up more.

Thank you very much for your help here, especially going through each point. I very much appreciate it!

 

[Miami Reef]

My question here is, do these Tropic Marin products do anything I can't do with vinegar and/or vodka? Do you guys here at R2R put any stock in these TM products?

I’ve seen reports of Bacto balance reducing NO3. However, vinegar or vodka can always work the same or better. At the end, it only depends on how much carbon you’re adding.

I don’t think AFR adds a substantial amount of carbon. I wouldn’t have an issue dosing both at the same time, but spreading out the dose will never hurt.

 

[Fish Fan]

You can make saturated calcium hydroxide with vinegar. It should reduce 50% of its pH reducing effects. It will raise Alk and Ca a little depending on the dose.

Add enough Calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser) powder to the bottle of vinegar until you have an undissolved portion on the bottom. That’s how you know it’s fully saturated.

It will redissolve when you add more vinegar. Dose the clear portion on top.

Thank you very much for your help here!

I get what you are saying, but just to be clear, why would I want to fully saturate the Kalk I my carbon dosing solution? Why would I not want to just bring it from an acidic solution to somewhere around like 8.3? To me, I'd be negating the acid drop from dosing vinegar, but not adding so much alk and calk as to throw the AFR out of balance. I will be doing regular water changes, so maybe I'm over thinking this.

Thank you again, I really appreciate your help here!

 

[Fish Fan]

I’ve seen reports of Bacto balance reducing NO3. However, vinegar or vodka can always work the same or better. At the end, it only depends on how much carbon you’re adding.

I don’t think AFR adds a substantial amount of carbon. I wouldn’t have an issue dosing both at the same time, but spreading out the dose will never hurt.

My concern here was adding too many products that would consume oxygen all at the same time.

I would agree, why use so much of a carbon dosing solution that it necessarily required to add more nitrate and phosphate back in? It seems like the simple answer is, don't add so much carbon that your nutrients bottom out.

Thank you very much, I really appreciate you help!

 

[Miami Reef]

I get what you are saying, but just to be clear, why would I want to fully saturate the Kalk I my carbon dosing solution? Why would I not want to just bring it from an acidic solution to somewhere around like 8.3?

2 reasons. Even fully saturating calcium hydroxide with vinegar won’t have the same pH boost as a pure kalkwasser solution. The vinegar messes up the hydroxide.

Pure vinegar (acidic) or saturated CaOH with vinegar (base) inhibits bacterial growth. Only partially saturating it can allow bacteria growth in the container.

 

[rishma]

My question here is, do these Tropic Marin products do anything I can't do with vinegar and/or vodka? Do you guys here at R2R put any stock in these TM products?

I’ve seen reports of Bacto balance reducing NO3. However, vinegar or vodka can always work the same or better. At the end, it only depends on how much carbon you’re adding.

I don’t think AFR adds a substantial amount of carbon. I wouldn’t have an issue dosing both at the same time, but spreading out the dose will never hurt.

I bottomed out nitrate using NP bacto balance. It was not on purpose. Nothing appeared to suffer at all, perhaps because of the included nitrogen sources or something else. Since that time I changed my feeding mix and now keep nitrates usually 5-10. So yes, it can reduce nitrates but not as quickly as vinegar or vodka in my experience. It’s not the carbon source I would use if lowering nitrates was my goal.

 

[Fish Fan]

2 reasons. Even fully saturating calcium hydroxide with vinegar won’t have the same pH boost as a pure kalkwasser solution. The vinegar messes up the hydroxide.

Again, consider me a moron here, though I have a very dusty Chem minor. Wouldn't adding more Kalk simply overcome the relatively weak acetic acid solution?

Pure vinegar (acidic) or saturated CaOH with vinegar (base) inhibits bacterial growth. Only partially saturating it can allow bacteria growth in the container.

Pardon me, but this is new to me. Do you mean that bacteria would/should grown in the carbon dosing container before it's even dosed into the tank, and that extremes of pH in either direction will hamper those bacteria, which makes sense? I didn't know the bacteria should be growing in the dosing container, or maybe I'm misunderstanding your reply here?

 

[rishma]

I’ve seen reports of Bacto balance reducing NO3. However, vinegar or vodka can always work the same or better. At the end, it only depends on how much carbon you’re adding.

I don’t think AFR adds a substantial amount of carbon. I wouldn’t have an issue dosing both at the same time, but spreading out the dose will never hurt.

My concern here was adding too many products that would consume oxygen all at the same time.

I would agree, why use so much of a carbon dosing solution that it necessarily required to add more nitrate and phosphate back in? It seems like the simple answer is, don't add so much carbon that your nutrients bottom out.

Thank you very much, I really appreciate you help!

With a skimmer and surface agitation, oxygen will not be a problem unless you have a serious overdose and bacterial bloom (cloudy water).

In the past with pure carbon dosing like vodka/vinegar I personally could not maintain stable N and P long term without adding them back in (usually N). One or both would bottom out.

If I didn’t have a lifetime supply of NP bacto balance, I’d probably try vinegar again and add a little nitrate to keep things stable. I think I could dial it in today with my mature tank and additional experience I’ve gained. But NP BB mostly does it for me.

 

[Fish Fan]

I bottomed out nitrate using NP bacto balance. It was not on purpose. Nothing appeared to suffer at all, perhaps because of the included nitrogen sources or something else. Since that time I changed my feeding mix and now keep nitrates usually 5-10. So yes, it can reduce nitrates but not as quickly as vinegar or vodka in my experience. It’s not the carbon source I would use if lowering nitrates was my goal.

Things can change, but right now I'm running relatively high nitrates in this tank, but reasonably low phosphates. I believe this makes this tank a good candidate for carbon dosing. Would you suggest any or all of the TM products, or would you suggest using vinegar, vodka, or a combination?

 

[rishma]

My concern here was adding too many products that would consume oxygen all at the same time.

I would agree, why use so much of a carbon dosing solution that it necessarily required to add more nitrate and phosphate back in? It seems like the simple answer is, don't add so much carbon that your nutrients bottom out.

Thank you very much, I really appreciate you help!

With a skimmer and surface agitation, oxygen won’t be an issue unless you have a serious overdose and cloudy water.

My experience with vodka/vinegar dosing is N would drop and sometimes P would rise. Dosing less would help keep N from getting too low, but P would rise more. Adding some N back in helps keep N from bottoming out and P from rising. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Fish Fan]

If I didn’t have a lifetime supply of NP bacto balance, I’d probably try vinegar again and add a little nitrate to keep things stable. I think I could dial it in today with my mature tank and additional experience I’ve gained. But NP BB mostly does it for me.

^Nice! I'll give the TM products a good look, but glad to know that traditional carbon sources will work, for those of use without a lifetime supply of TM NPBB

 

[Fish Fan]

With a skimmer and surface agitation, oxygen won’t be an issue unless you have a serious overdose and cloudy water.

To be honest, I have no plans to add fish to this tank, so concerns about oxygen isn't really important for me now, but I am planing a larger tank with fish, so I do want to get a handle on all f this. I'm planning a much larger display tank build, 150 gallons.

Thank you again for your help, I really appreciate it!!!

 

[rishma]

Things can change, but right now I'm running relatively high nitrates in this tank, but reasonably low phosphates. I believe this makes this tank a good candidate for carbon dosing. Would you suggest any or all of the TM products, or would you suggest using vinegar, vodka, or a combination?

I don’t have a strong opinion here. I like vinegar for carbon dosing and nitrate reduction, but I’ve had good success with NP bacto balance so I keep using it. I think I dose less than 1ml per day at this point and it’s a 500ml bottle, so not quite a lifetime supply.

 

[Miami Reef]

I misspoke. Kalkwasser removes all the acidifying effects of vinegar. Not 50%. I’ll explain the rationale.

 

[rishma]

To be honest, I have no plans to add fish to this tank,

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