Proof Asterina starfish are harmful!

[Reef broke]

I’m squashing the long drawn out debate about asterina stars. This is the first time I have seen proof of foul play. Maybe it is only this particular species. I’ve had them in my tank for years. This is the first time seeing this. It was eating away at the gigas clam mantle.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’m squashing the long drawn out debate about asterina stars. This is the first time I have seen proof of foul play. Maybe it is only this particular species. I’ve had them in my tank for years. This is the first time seeing this. It was eating away at the gigas clam mantle.

Ive known this for years and wholly agree

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I also fully agree and have removed them from my tanks long ago.

 

[Reef broke]

Better safe than sorry right? I got a bunch left but most eat algae. I also had to remove lots of pyramid snails. Been doing it for a couple years. Hopefully I don’t have any left but my clams are pretty good size and a few nibbles here and there is not going to have a noticeable effect.

 

[KQuillan]

I have had one eat my banana torch! I hate the things and they multiply like crazy!

 

[Reef broke]

Time to get another harlequin shrimp.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I argued for years that they are all harmless until a year or two ago when similar thread caused me to dig in and do more research.

The short of it:
Most species that we see in our aquarium are harmless to coral. If you see them on a coral, they are eating already dead or decaying tissue. Most of these species are typically visually indistinguishable from one another. We conflate their presence as the cause of the coral dying, when in fact they are just recycling the mess.

There are a small number of species that are obligate coral eaters, but most of these have evolved take on the color of the specific coral genus or species that they dine on, so may be hard to spot but are easy to distinguish as "bad" due to the color match once they are spotted.

Hoe that helps some.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I argued for years that they are all harmless until a year or two ago when similar thread caused me to dig in and do more research.

The short of it:
Most species that we see in our aquarium are harmless to coral. If you see them on a coral, they are eating already dead or decaying tissue. Most of these species are typically visually indistinguishable from one another. We conflate their presence as the cause of the coral dying, when in fact they are just recycling the mess.

There are a small number of species that are obligate coral eaters, but most of these have evolved take on the color of the specific coral genus or species that they dine on, so may be hard to spot but are easy to distinguish as "bad" due to the color match once they are spotted.

Hoe that helps some.

The claim that coral eating species can generally be identified by colour matching their host appears to be misinformation.
Colour matching occurs in many reef organisms, including harmless symbiotic species that by itself is not evidence of predation. I’m not aware of evidence showing that colouration is a reliable way to distinguish coral feeding organisms from harmless species. Direct observation of healthy tissue being consumed would be much stronger evidence.

 

[exnisstech]

They were fine until they weren't. I've witnessed them eating zoas and also flesh off of an acro. I never had a problem in almost 10 years but I now treat them all as enemies. My last harlequin shrimp lasted 14 months before disappearing with stars still present so I don't think it starved. My asterina population is almost ready for a another one.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I could never get them to multiply in my aquarium, probably because I like them

 

[Reef broke]

Great responses! The answer is if I like them they won’t multiply. Thank you sixty_reefer!

 

[BeanAnimal]

The claim that coral eating species can generally be identified by colour matching their host appears to be misinformation.
Colour matching occurs in many reef organisms, including harmless symbiotic species that by itself is not evidence of predation. I’m not aware of evidence showing that colouration is a reliable way to distinguish coral feeding organisms from harmless species. Direct observation of healthy tissue being consumed would be much stronger evidence.

---

That was not my claim, you broadened it. Asterina are the only subject of this thread and my response was not ambiguous. My claim was specific to obligate coral-eating asterinas in this context, not animals in general.

I also did not say or imply that color matching alone identifies a coral predator. If that is your interpretation, I'm happy to clarify, but my opening "the short of it" was to signal an explicitly condensed summary of a broader topic, ignoring the taxonomy and behavior rabbit hole that these and similarly nearly indistinguishable stars leads to.

The comment regarding coloration and predatory asterinas was sourced directly from Mike Paletta, published in both Tropical Fish Hobbyist (Jan/Feb 2024) and Reef Builders: "The non-predatory members usually are drab colored gray or beige in color, while the predatory clan usually match the color of the corals they eat, so they will have more green or blue or even pink on their surface."

Labeling that misinformation requires a source showing it's false, not a self admitted unfamiliarity with the evidence. If contradicting evidence does exist, I will be more than happy to update my position, and that is exactly what I did before this post when my prior research changed my view regarding any asterinas being obligate coral predators.

 

[Reef broke]

I go off my personal observations and experience. Seen asterinas in my tank for years with zero observed foul play. Until today.

 

[sixty_reefer]

---

That was not my claim, you broadened it. Asterina are the only subject of this thread and my response was not ambiguous. My claim was specific to obligate coral-eating asterinas in this context, not animals in general.

I also did not say or imply that color matching alone identifies a coral predator. If that is your interpretation, I'm happy to clarify, but my opening "the short of it" was to signal an explicitly condensed summary of a broader topic, ignoring the taxonomy and behavior rabbit hole that these and similarly nearly indistinguishable stars leads to.

The comment regarding coloration and predatory asterinas was sourced directly from Mike Paletta, published in both Tropical Fish Hobbyist (Jan/Feb 2024) and Reef Builders: "The non-predatory members usually are drab colored gray or beige in color, while the predatory clan usually match the color of the corals they eat, so they will have more green or blue or even pink on their surface."

Labeling that misinformation requires a source showing it's false, not a self admitted unfamiliarity with the evidence. If contradicting evidence does exist, I will be more than happy to update my position, and that is exactly what I did before this post when my prior research changed my view regarding any asterinas being obligate coral predators.

Mike Palleta is certainly an experienced and respected aquarist but I’m asking whether there is evidence beyond anecdotal observation that colouration can reliably distinguish predatory Asterina from non predatory species as per your claim.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Mike Palleta is certainly an experienced and respected aquarist but I’m asking whether there is evidence beyond anecdotal observation that colouration can reliably distinguish predatory Asterina from non predatory species as per your claim.

Woah, let's back up here.

You called my post misinformation, then admitted you were unaware of any supporting evidence to back that accusation.

That is bad enough, but now that you have been shown a published source that refutes your accusation, you are trying to shift the claim and ask if the source is sufficient. At the same time calling that source (Mike Paletta) respected in the same breath as dismissing his published work as anecdotal.

That is not how burden of proof works. I cited a credible published source. You made the misinformation accusation and were wrong. That burden is yours to prove, but you are trying to shift it to me.

If you have a source contradicting Paletta's article in Tropical Fish Hobbyist, take it up with the publication and Mike. I am not the source and I didn't make the claim, I cited the source directly.

 

[Reef Jedi]

I could never get them to multiply in my aquarium, probably because I like them

This is my experience as well lol

 

[sixty_reefer]

Woah, let's back up here.

You called my post misinformation, then admitted you were unaware of any supporting evidence to back that accusation.

That is bad enough, but now that you have been shown a published source that refutes your accusation, you are trying to shift the claim and ask if the source is sufficient. At the same time calling that source (Mike Paletta) respected in the same breath as dismissing his published work as anecdotal.

That is not how burden of proof works. I cited a credible published source. You made the misinformation accusation and were wrong. That burden is yours to prove, but you are trying to shift it to me.

If you have a source contradicting Paletta's article in Tropical Fish Hobbyist, take it up with the publication and Mike. I am not the source and I didn't make the claim, I cited the source directly.

I’m not questioning that the observation exists, I’m questioning weather the observation has been validated as a reliable diagnosis characteristic. An observation that some predatory Asterina colour match their host is not the same as evidence that colouration can reliably distinguish predatory from non predatory species. Has this been tested beyond anecdotal observation or is it currently a hobbyist heuristic?

Also, do you consider everything published in a hobby magazine to be reliable information or should claims still be evaluated on the evidence supporting them?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I’m not questioning that the observation exists, I’m questioning weather the observation has been validated as a reliable diagnosis characteristic. An observation that some predatory Asterina colour match their host is not the same as evidence that colouration can reliably distinguish predatory from non predatory species. Has this been tested beyond anecdotal observation or is it currently a hobbyist heuristic?

Also, do you consider everything published in a hobby magazine to be reliable information or should claims still be evaluated on the evidence supporting them?

That is not what I claimed and this isn't a debate.

I shared a published article from a credible source in this hobby, with a passage directly relevant to the thread.

You broadened my language and falsely accused me of spreading misinformation. I am not the source of the information. If you have questions about "diagnostic characteristics" or "evidence" then you will need to ask Mike Paletta for sources and explanations for the cited article.

As for source standards: if credible hobby publications require peer-reviewed validation before they can be cited here, none of your posts meet that bar either. If we accept unsupported claims on the word of the person posting them, Mike Paletta's word carries considerably more weight than yours.

 

[sixty_reefer]

That is not what I claimed and this isn't a debate.

I shared a published article from a credible source in this hobby, with a passage directly relevant to the thread.

You broadened my language and falsely accused me of spreading misinformation. I am not the source of the information. If you have questions about "diagnostic characteristics" or "evidence" then you will need to ask Mike Paletta for sources and explanations for the cited article.

As for source standards: if credible hobby publications require peer-reviewed validation before they can be cited here, none of your posts meet that bar either. If we accept unsupported claims on the word of the person posting them, Mike Paletta's word carries considerably more weight than yours.

I understand that you later attributed the claim to Mike Palleta, but in this thread the statement was originally presented by you as part of your response.

There are a small number of species that are obligate coral eaters, but most of these have evolved take on the color of the specific coral genus or species that they dine on, so may be hard to spot but are easy to distinguish as "bad" due to the color match once they are spotted.

Hoe that helps some.

My question remains unchanged: what evidence supports the claim that colouration is a reliable characteristic for distinguishing predatory from non predatory Asterina?

An observation that some predatory Asterina colour match their host is not the same as evidence that colouration can be used as a reliable diagnostic characteristic.

I’m not asking who made the claim, I’m asking what evidence supports it.

 

[Acrononomus]

I have about 50,000 in my tank right now. Sucks cause I like them, like Jake Adam’s said there great little clean up crew to get into the nooks and crannies. I noticed my zooanthids starting to close up, then disappear one by one. Didn’t think they were eating them. Till I seen them on them at nite time. I’ll post a pic later