Carbon dosing with distilled white vinager.

[Formulator]

All photosynthetic organisms in your tank are consuming nitrate (or other source of N).

Not sure why you are asking about other carbon sources, but any metabolizable organic that is deficient in N can be used. Vinegar and vodka are cheap, pure, and invisible after dosing. :)

Oh ya duh. I mentioned other carbon sources as an explanation for how denitrifying bacteria could continue to consume nitrate after stopping carbon dosing. If you have a detritus sink somewhere for example, isn’t that decay releasing an organic carbon source for the bacteria you have established with the carbon dosing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Oh ya duh. I mentioned other carbon sources as an explanation for how denitrifying bacteria could continue to consume nitrate after stopping carbon dosing. If you have a detritus sink somewhere for example, isn’t that decay releasing an organic carbon source for the bacteria you have established with the carbon dosing?

Detritus has N and P in it, like fish food. So its metabolism, even if some of the organics are used in denitrification, is not usually very effective at reducing N. Some is possible, yes, but the fact that it isn’t that effective is why extra organic serves to lower nitrate.

 

[Formulator]

Detritus has N and P in it, like fish food. So its metabolism, even if some of the organics are used in denitrification, is not usually very effective at reducing N. Some is possible, yes, but the fact that it isn’t that effective is why extra organic serves to lower nitrate.

Every time I think I know something! Thanks for keeping us honest Randy. I suppose I need to listen more and speak less!

 

[John Biddle]

That would assume that the tank is carbon limited and the bacteria will stop consuming nitrate without your vinegar/vodka input. I found that not to be the case once I had an established denitrifying bacteria population. There were plenty of other carbon sources to keep them consuming nitrate at a healthy rate, which then led to a nitrate limited state and an excess of phosphate. It is a delicate balancing act between carbon, nitrate, and phosphate. Some folks may be lucky enough that they can control the system with carbon adjustments only, but it was not the case in my experience and I am still nitrate limited 2 years after completely stopping carbon dosing. I also know that my experience is not unique and several other folks have experienced the same with carbon dosing.

OK, I certainly don't know what's going on in your tank and don't want to presume. But I do have questions.

• What were your nitrates when you started carbon dosing?
• What was your target?
• Did you increase the vinegar each week as the chart directed while nitrates either continued to climb or leveled out?
• Did you stop increasing the dose when NO3 started to decrease?
• How long did that take?
• Did you just stop dosing when you got to your target or did you do something else?
• What other changes did you make between starting to dose vinegar, or may just a little before that, and the end of dosing?

Absent other changes, whatever was keeping your nitrates higher than you wanted them to be should be still in place and still causing them to be high/increase. Clearly the carbon dosing worked for you, at least for a while, since your nitrates dropped. The bacteria population increase which had been fed by the carbon, is still there unless you decreased it with water changes, but without the vinegar won't be reducing nitrates as much so whatever caused your initial nitrate problem should be having that same effect again. Unless you made some other change(s). Carbon dosing is well understood, it's not a black art.

 

[Formulator]

OK, I certainly don't know what's going on in your tank and don't want to presume. But I do have questions.

• What were your nitrates when you started carbon dosing?
• What was your target?
• Did you increase the vinegar each week as the chart directed while nitrates either continued to climb or leveled out?
• Did you stop increasing the dose when NO3 started to decrease?
• How long did that take?
• Did you just stop dosing when you got to your target or did you do something else?
• What other changes did you make between starting to dose vinegar, or may just a little before that, and the end of dosing?

Absent other changes, whatever was keeping your nitrates higher than you wanted them to be should be still in place and still causing them to be high/increase. Clearly the carbon dosing worked for you, at least for a while, since your nitrates dropped. The bacteria population increase which had been fed by the carbon, is still there unless you decreased it with water changes, but without the vinegar won't be reducing nitrates as much so whatever caused your initial nitrate problem should be having that same effect again. Unless you made some other change(s). Carbon dosing is well understood, it's not a black art.

I don’t remember any of the numbers as this was years ago, but I followed a detailed titration protocol for vinegar dosing and when I reached my target, I leveled off. Used a dosing pump to maintain at that value for a couple years and eventually got lazy about testing nitrates. Then had some life events and the tank was neglected for a while. After recently re-focusing on the tank and getting things back in order I had PO4 readings >2.0 and NO3 of zero. I began a rigorous effort to correct this balance about 6 weeks ago using nitrate dosing and short term periods of GFO use. Nitrate dosing has been effective at reducing PO4 in my tank. I add enough to raise the NO3 0.5 ppm daily and a majority of it gets consumed in 24 hours. It has taken 6 weeks to slowly raise NO3 to about 2 ppm and get PO4 to about 0.5 ppm.

 

[John Biddle]

I don’t remember any of the numbers as this was years ago, but I followed a detailed titration protocol for vinegar dosing and when I reached my target, I leveled off. Used a dosing pump to maintain at that value for a couple years and eventually got lazy about testing nitrates. Then had some life events and the tank was neglected for a while. After recently re-focusing on the tank and getting things back in order I had PO4 readings >2.0 and NO3 of zero. I began a rigorous effort to correct this balance about 6 weeks ago using nitrate dosing and short term periods of GFO use. Nitrate dosing has been effective at reducing PO4 in my tank. I add enough to raise the NO3 0.5 ppm daily and a majority of it gets consumed in 24 hours. It has taken 6 weeks to slowly raise NO3 to about 2 ppm and get PO4 to about 0.5 ppm.

So it would appear that your NO3 bottoming out and your ending of carbon dosing may (probably) have had nothing to do with each other.

 

[clicfacil]

Hello everyone,

I am very excited about this post since I have problems with my nitrates and phosphates and although my animals look good I know they could be better....

My aquarium is 120 gallons without sand including the sump, my current values are:

Temperature: 26.1°C
pH: 8.28
Nitrate: 20 ppm
Phosphate: 0.27 ppm
Salinity: 1026 SG
Alkalinity: 8.85 dKH
Calcium: 445 ppm
Magnesium: 1350 ppm.
Osmosis TDS: 0.00 ppm

I have a marine aquarium for more than 20 years, this aquarium has been in operation for 8 years but before this I had a 90 gallon one that worked well with pellets, when I moved to this one the nitrates and phosphates have been a problem, something that does not make much sense because I moved only 2 floors in the same building.. Same water, same climate, same salt, same products BUTnew dead rock (that's where I think the problem is)

I have a bacteria block in the sump and 2 small polyp lab blocks. I run an ats that I clean approximately every 12 days, which does remove algae but something slimy, not filamentous, dark green.

I think my problem is that my bacteria are not in quantity that should help me with nutrients, so I started 2 weeks ago adding microbacter 7 and microbacter clean once a week with a day in between turning off my skimmer for 4 hours, from Then I saw how my nitrates dropped from 0.39 to 0.27 and the skimmer began to produce a darker paste. Everything looks much better, the water is clearer, the corals are more open.... although in the bacteria bottle the manufacturer says that in 2 weeks it is possible that we will not see visible effects, I already see them, but I believe this vinegar method could enhance me in what I'm looking.

for Now I have 3 questions:
1) I keep adding bacteria, I don't know, for about 4 or 6 weeks, do I evaluate the results and start with the vinegar or do I add the vinegar and stop the addition of bacteria?
2) Do I remove the ats? Or can it work in conjunction with the vinegar method?
3) the vinegar they sell in my country says "Distilled and pasteurized, made with 5% sugar cane alcohol, natural flavor and aroma"

I do biweekly 20% water changes.

In my other aquarium I had pellets and they worked well as a carbon source, in this aquarium they do not work well for me, the nutrients remain at those values and I removed them about 3 years ago. I tried NOPOX a couple of years ago and I think although I did it as the label says on the container, I think it was too much since my corals started to die I had to stop it immediately. At that time I don't remember how I had my values.
Sorry for the length of my message but I wanted to put it in context.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

 

[Formulator]

Nitrate: 20 ppm
Phosphate: 0.27 ppm

I see absolutely no problem with these numbers in a tank that age. What makes you think they are too high?

 

[clicfacil]

I see absolutely no problem with these numbers in a tank that age. What makes you think they are too high?

I would like to have 8-10 nitrates and 0.03 phosphates

 

[Formulator]

I would like to have 8-10 nitrates and 0.03 phosphates

Right, thats fine, but why do you want those numbers? Do any corals have issues? Chasing numbers just because someone said they are a good target is kind of silly IMO. Especially in a tank that age.

 

[Reefering1]

Although, converting that excess nutrients into food for filter feeders(via bacteria assimilation) sounds beneficial.. but need much more info about system/ livestock to make quality recommendations

 

[clicfacil]

Está bien, pero ¿por qué quieres esos números? ¿Algún coral tiene problemas? Perseguir números solo porque alguien dijo que son un buen objetivo es una tontería, en mi opinión. Especialmente en un tanque de esa edad.

Nobody told me that I had to have those numbers, it's just that in my other aquarium with those numbers the rock was much more polished and the corals grew better, with better coloration...

 

[clicfacil]

I don't chase numbers, I want better water quality for reef animals.

 

[ShakeyGizzard]

I don't chase numbers, I want better water quality for reef animals.

Don't we all

 

[ShakeyGizzard]

You do you, let them do them. If its works for your other tank, AND this tank has similar occupants, then work it.

 

[Formulator]

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be difficult or dismissive. I just know in older tanks, phosphate especially can be hard to lower and sometimes everything is already adapted to the higher number so there is limited benefit to lowering.

That said, I just spent 3 months getting phosphate down from 2.0 to 0.1 ppm in my 9 year old mixed reef 120g. I am personally not a fan of lanthanum chloride which may have been faster, but not worth the risk to my fish. So I used GFO to chip away at it over time. At first it may seem like you aren’t getting anywhere because the phosphate gets bound up in the rocks. Eventually by continuing to remove from the water via GFO you will get most of the PO4 out of the rock and start getting better traction with the GFO. So be careful towards the end as it starts to accelerate downward. You don’t want to bottom it out. I still really think 20 ppm nitrate is perfectly acceptable, but if you are set on lowering that also, there are several options. The easiest is probably just a couple water changes, but if you want continuous removal you could explore carbon dosing or a refugium.

 

[clicfacil]

Although, converting that excess nutrients into food for filter feeders(via bacteria assimilation) sounds beneficial.. but need much more info about system/ livestock to make quality recommendations

Thanks for your answer, I understand that you don't know my tank enough to offer a solution but what you say sounds good that's why I asked the 3 questions...

1) I keep adding bacteria, I don't know, for about 4 or 6 weeks , do I evaluate the results and start with the vinegar or do I add the vinegar and stop the addition of bacteria?
2) Do I remove the ats? Or can it work in conjunction with the vinegar method?
3) the vinegar they sell in my country says "Distilled and pasteurized, made with 5% sugar cane alcohol, natural flavor and aroma"

 

[clicfacil]

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be difficult or dismissive. I just know in older tanks, phosphate especially can be hard to lower and sometimes everything is already adapted to the higher number so there is limited benefit to lowering.

That said, I just spent 3 months getting phosphate down from 2.0 to 0.1 ppm in my 9 year old mixed reef 120g. I am personally not a fan of lanthanum chloride which may have been faster, but not worth the risk to my fish. So I used GFO to chip away at it over time. At first it may seem like you aren’t getting anywhere because the phosphate gets bound up in the rocks. Eventually by continuing to remove from the water via GFO you will get most of the PO4 out of the rock and start getting better traction with the GFO. So be careful towards the end as it starts to accelerate downward. You don’t want to bottom it out. I still really think 20 ppm nitrate is perfectly acceptable, but if you are set on lowering that also, there are several options. The easiest is probably just a couple water changes, but if you want continuous removal you could explore carbon dosing or a refugium.

No problem, my friend, I understand your point.
There are many number chasers without even knowing why they are looking for those numbers. I understand that phosphate accumulates in the rock and does its thing. A more or less large, powerful refuge will do a good job, but it also consumes trace elements that I will have to replace, either with changes or by adding bottles that I would not like to buy.

And reading everything you talk about carbon dosing "with caution" I think it could be an interesting, monitored and effective way to achieve what I am looking for.
I would not like to use GFO, and as I explained, I have an ATS, but I do not feel that it does a good job.
If I can summarize or define this aquarium, I feel that it is like a person who has low defenses. If someone passes by with a cold, they will catch it LOL. That is why I started adding bacteria and I see changes, which excites me because with carbon it can improve substantially.
THANKS FOR YOUR COMMENTS :)
but my questions are:
1) I keep adding bacteria, I don't know, for about 4 or 6 weeks , do I evaluate the results and start with the vinegar or do I add the vinegar and stop the addition of bacteria?
2) Do I remove the ats? Or can it work in conjunction with the vinegar method?
3) the vinegar they sell in my country says "Distilled and pasteurized, made with 5% sugar cane alcohol, natural flavor and aroma"

h e l p LOL

 

[Formulator]

I see your dilemma! I have a few thoughts:

1) I keep adding bacteria, I don't know, for about 4 or 6 weeks , do I evaluate the results and start with the vinegar or do I add the vinegar and stop the addition of bacteria?

I don’t have much experience with adding bacteria, but I don’t see how it could hurt to switch over to vinegar. Any bacteria you already added should be able to grow in the tank, especially with the added carbon.

2) Do I remove the ats? Or can it work in conjunction with the vinegar method?

I had a refugium and vinegar dosed at the same time without much problem. Eventually I did have to start dosing nitrate to keep from bottoming out though. I ended up stopping the carbon dosing eventually, but I’m considering restarting just for the benefits to the biodiversity and additional bacteria food for corals.

3) the vinegar they sell in my country says "Distilled and pasteurized, made with 5% sugar cane alcohol, natural flavor and aroma"

Sorry, I’ve got no idea on this one.

 

[clicfacil]

¡Entiendo tu dilema! Tengo algunas ideas:


No tengo mucha experiencia con la incorporación de bacterias, pero no veo que pueda perjudicar la sustitución por vinagre. Las bacterias que ya hayas añadido deberían poder crecer en el tanque, especialmente con el carbón añadido.


Tenía un refugio y vinagre dosificados al mismo tiempo sin demasiados problemas. Sin embargo, al final tuve que empezar a dosificar nitrato para evitar que se agotara. Al final, dejé de dosificar carbono, pero estoy pensando en volver a hacerlo solo por los beneficios para la biodiversidad y el alimento bacteriano adicional para los corales.


Lo siento, no tengo idea de esto.

Thanks for your help, you encourage me to go for the carbon dosage, but I'm afraid of using the wrong vinegar.
Although I think it's the one that should be used... we'll see if someone knowledgeable can help me in this regard.