Carbon dosing

[justy]

To have a thriving sps tank like some ofthd AF tanks you see, is it preferable to carbon dose?
I understand about nutrient balance but if you lower measurable nutrients in the water column through carbon dosing can you add more food. And is it the increase in food that makes this method successful or having lower nutrients?
Help I'm a bit confused what is exactly going on.
Thanks justin

 

[rkpetersen]

Carbon dosing promotes growth of bacteria which removes nitrate and phosphate from the water, and then you remove those bacteria with skimming. The main benefit for corals is the lower NO3 and PO4 levels themselves, as the higher levels can cause corals to becomes brown and colorless, and in severe cases limit coral growth.

 

[justy]

Thanks i understand how it works, but i don't understand how reducing nutrients causes better growth and thriving corals?

 

[justy]

Thanks for the reply I have carbon dosed a few times before but could not say either way whether it gave me better results or not.
Is it best to push loads of nutrients through a system and reduce them with carbon dosing?

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Thanks for the reply I have carbon dosed a few times before but could not say either way whether it gave me better results or not.
Is it best to push loads of nutrients through a system and reduce them with carbon dosing?

I had terrible (rtn/stn) with carbon dosing and/or using gfo. I know many sps keepers use these methods but I started having success when I stopped them.

 

[rkpetersen]

Thanks i understand how it works, but i don't understand how reducing nutrients causes better growth and thriving corals?

Although they are nutrients for algae, for corals nitrate and phosphate can inhibit coral skeleton formation if high enough.

All things being equal, it's better not to have to carbon dose. A 'natural' solution like running a refugium or algae scrubber is just as effective and much safer. In my opinion.

 

[justy]

Thanks.
Why is there so much dialogue from AF, Red sea and others about the benifits of carbon dosing.
Namely bacteria bio mass produced is food for corals is this actual fact can sps catch and consume bacteria?
No doubt some of there tanks do look very healthy huge polyp exstension and massive growth tips.
Thanks justin

 

[jda]

If you are serious about this, look at ZEOVit. It has been around the longest and is the OG of these type of methods. The others are derivative enough to get the idea from the masses of posts and info on ZEO.

None of these methods stress low building blocks, but they do end up being low on a test kit. They stress high THROUGHPUT with massive import of food and massive export of the waste. The guys from the BRS video say it very well, where I am paraphrasing: "Some people think that ZEO is ULNS, but there are more nutrients (they mean building blocks) in this tank than nearly any other that we have seen, but they do not stick around long enough to show it on a test kit." I am butchering this, but watch the video and you will get it.

If you are interested in any of this, just know that you will have an acute daily responsibility to do something to your tank. This is more work. Most people who have done this a long time are in Europe and they have larger tanks with 10x, 12x or MH lighting and some have noticed horrible differences when switching to LED - they believe that the actual nutrient production (sugar from the zoox) is not the same with LED as it was under the T5 or MH. You might need to get Google or Chrome translate some of the posts for you, but they can be a wealth of info from the EU. These hobbyists are also VERY experienced and could succeed with any method, but they do choose this one.

These systems dose organic carbon to help the export. Don't confuse this with trying to lower building blocks - they just want to keep them where they are at with the massive input of food. Their corals never starve since there is always enough of everything in the water at any give time, it is just not allowed to accumulate.

Most of these methods also have you add "black box" type of additives. Some of these contain harsh metals to kill some of the zoox to make the colors contrast better. I will not use any additive that I do not know what is in the bottle, so I am out on all of these. To each their own.

Lastly, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, do not just pick and choose parts to an overall method to use without the other parts. Just choosing to carbon dose because ZEO or AF does it will lead to failure if you do not do the other things too. Use these methods whole or find another wholistic method that works for you.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

My tank seems to only do well when I am carbon dosing and feeding good food often. I tried to stop when I moved the tank and it never bounced back into grow mode, now that I have been dosing again nutrients finally are nice and low and corals growing again. The bacteria feeds a lot of other things in the tank other than corals and I really think this is part of what helps keep them going. I have always seen massive sponge and feather worm growth when things are stable and growing in a carbon source tank. I love the clear water in them too.
I wouldn’t say you have to do all the extra dosing suppliants like new said though. You can choose to just use a carbon source and run the tank just fine. Even pick one or two of zero or af’s system is ok if you understand what they are and are supposed to do. I prefer AF because their products are not as harsh on corals as some zeo supplements are and they disclose the main ingredients which is a huge plus. If I had to choose though I would dose zeo fws and their sponge power. But it’s to expensive for my taste, although I liked the results when I used them. For AF I would use aminos vitamins and their energy supplements. For any supplement I would only start dosing once my tank is growing new growth on most corals and proving steady colors. Then I really see what each product is doing. Except fws, that’s a good addition for hurt corals too.

 

[justy]

Thanks guys for all the fantastic detail and information.
I will take my time and digest it properly.
I suppose the take home message is as big a through put of nutrients as you/the tank can manage while keeping measurable nutrients very low.
Big thanks again very helpful.
Cheers justin

 

[jda]

If you are taking time to process, there are three more critical things that you might put into your mind.

First, "nutrients" is used a broad term online in reefing. There are two things that do completely different things. First, nitrate and phosphate are building blocks of life and do not give any energy - having more will not allow coral to grow faster or anything... but you need "enough" or else growth can be limited and tissue repair will be slower. If you are testing any amount of N or P, then you have a surplus. Second, corals get energy from the zoox which get it from the light. More and higher quality light can help corals grow faster and be more colorful. Corals can also catch food to get carbon, but there is no evidence that SPS catch any in captivity and that what they are eating has any nutritional value - so who knows.

Second, phosphate is bound and buffered by aragonite. Don't get lazy when you see low P on a test kit and think that you don't have any. The aragonite will bind it and take it out of the water column, but over time, the aragonite will fill up while masking your husbandry routine and the phosphate will start to climb and can be very hard to get back down since you have to unbind all of the stuff in the aragonite.

Third, most coral can get all of the nitrogen that the need from ammonium and ammonia. This is likely how a lot of them get this building block when a tank (or the ocean) has very low, but detectable, levels.

All of this ties back in to the core of something like ZEO or the derivatives... lots of energy from light and a constant supply of building blocks with heavy export of the unused and low residual values.

 

[justy]

Thanks guys this is amazing information and I realy appreciate the time you have given taken to reply.
So if you don't carbon dose how do you achieve low nutrients test parameters, while pushing large food input through the tank?
Sorry for all the questions.
Ps where can i find the BRS video?
Cheers again.

 

[Hemmdog]

Thanks guys this is amazing information and I realy appreciate the time you have given taken to reply.
So if you don't carbon dose how do you achieve low nutrients test parameters, while pushing large food input through the tank?
Sorry for all the questions.
Ps where can i find the BRS video?
Cheers again.

Big protein skimmer, fuge, possibly a ats. It’s a dance. I just started carbon dosing a few weeks ago. I love it. All my acros that have been stunted for months on growth have taken off, great pe, great new colors I’ve never seen in them before. I upgraded my skimmer as well to be able to rip the excess waste the carbon dosing has been making. I feed heavy as well due to my triggerfish being a fatty. 8 cubes of pe mysis a day in my 90. I do a small amount of dosing, only 2ml of Nopox a day. It seems most people who crash their tanks are dosing much more.
It seems I am now doing this zeo method without the zeovit that @jda speaks of. I am blasting my tank with pretty bright light as well: 2 360’s 4 48’ t5 blue + & coral +.

 

[justy]

Thanks
What do you attribute the increased PE and growth to?
Have you increased food input during the carbon dosing?
Where were you parameters before CD and What are they now?
Lots if questions I know.
Cheers justin

 

[Hemmdog]

I’m not sure about why they have better pe and growth now. My only variables that changed were starting 2ml a day and a bigger skimmer.
A little over a month ago they were 40 nitrate and .3ppm phosphate. A week later 15 & .15ppm, now pretty stable at 10 & .03ppm

Feeding was 6-8 cubes of frozen a day the whole time. I do reef roids twice a week broadcast. No algae issues in my tank before or currently. I just wanted to slow down rising nutrients before they got out of hand. I’m happy with my tank finally.

 

[jda]

There are no shortage of ways to keep your N and P down. I just use 3" of sand to crush the nitrate, ROUTINE water changes, fuge to keep the phosphate at bay. I also have multiple skimmers in each tank (two good/great skimmers can outperform one of the "best" ones). Some folks with sand and no nitrate issues just use a bit of GFO or Lan Chloride to help with po4.

With my tank, carbon dosing would not do much since the sand can get all of the N and without the N, the bacteria will not grow enough to consume any P.

Here is my normal disclaimer - chasing N and P is a bad idea. Having a well-planned, slow approach to getting them low and then keeping them there is totally fine. Nature would do it slowly while bacteria and fauna build up, then when it got low, it would find an equilibrium where there was just enough to keep the equilibrium moving forward - work in this same vein. For example, carbon dosing to get N at 20 and P at .25 down to 1 and .03 in a few weeks is really dumb - the carbon dosing gets blamed here, but the approach and "chasing" is the real problem. Doing that same thing over 6 months and then starting to cut back near the end will cause no issues. Using as much GFO as you can stuff into a reactor to get P down quickly, then having it bounce back up when the aragonite releases of phosphate, then repeat a few times - this is bad with the low and high spikes whereas using just a tiny bit of GFO to slowly and methodically while replacing it often is totally fine. It is not the GFOs fault if you use it wrong.

 

[justy]

Thanks again for the responses.
My current N is 8ppm and Po4 is 0.2 a bit higher than my tank traditional settles at.
This is because I have recently doubled my food input to improve growth which has always been very slow.
My thinking is keep plenty of food going in but bring down the nutrient parameters slowly with carbon dosing to about 5ppm of N and Po4 0.08
What do you think?
Thanks justin.

 

[jda]

If your higher input was recent, then you might wait and see if the tank will adjust and lower them back down a bit. If you have bacterial populations that can turn nitrate into nitrogen gas, then they might just need time to multiply with the increased demand.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

My tanks always looked and ran better keeping nitrates near zero when carbon dosing and feeding well like that. Plus it’s nice to be able to add a little nitrate when it gets clear on a kit in order to lower phosphate which is always there for me and probably most carbon source users. Using this method I can always keep phosphate under .04 and nitrates barely readable.

 

[justy]

If your higher input was recent, then you might wait and see if the tank will adjust and lower them back down a bit. If you have bacterial populations that can turn nitrate into nitrogen gas, then they might just need time to multiply with the increased demand.