Ceramic Biomedia Efficacy vs Live Rock

[mjszos]

I have been doing some research, and am seeing conflicting reports on the efficacy of ceramic biomedia blocks (https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/marinepure-ceramic-biomedia-plate.html) and their efficacy.

What would be the live rock bioload equivalent in terms of LB's of Marco Rock for instance versus an 8"x8"x4" plate of the above linked media? Using a 50 gallon tank (with 20gal sump), the rule of .75-1.5lb rule of thumb per would be to have between 50-70lbs of rock in the system. What amount of rock would one of these bricks accommodate for? Could you use 10-20% less rock in place of one of these plates in the sump?

Further, are these meant to be a "set it and forget it" solution, or are you meant to clean the ceramic biomedia as well? I recall being told at one point that using bioballs in an AIO that these should be cleaned as detritus builds up on them, but that would defeat the purpose as you'd be wiping out the beneficial bacteria every time they were cleaned.

Looking forward to an interesting discussion on this.

 

[Tom1975]

I never tried them but I would like to know if u can use this for a quarantine tank... With coppersafe?

 

[Snoopy 67]

Polyp Lab Ceramic blocks claim 23,000 square foot surface area.
Capable of supporting 350 Gallons.

 

[Spare time]

They have 0 use in a reef tank with rock and sand. Plus, a lot of them fall apart overtime and create a mess. I would only use biomedia in a QT tank.

 

[mjszos]

Polyp Lab Ceramic blocks claim 23,000 square foot surface area.
Capable of supporting 350 Gallons.

That seems generous. Following the rule of thumb, that means their block is able to store as much beneficial bacteria as (at the lowest end of 0.75lbs/gal) 262.5lbs of live rock? Even halving that seems unbelievable. I'd be really curious to see their testing methodology.

The concept is awesome, being able to make more minimal looking scapes for instance with less concern for in-tank biomedia (in a FOWLR for instance).

They have 0 use in a reef tank with rock and sand. Plus, a lot of them fall apart overtime and create a mess. I would only use biomedia in a QT tank.

Presumably keeping them in a media bag would solve this issue, no?

I haven't ever run a QT tank, but isn't the general consensus to avoid live rock? Wouldn't this fall in the same category? Sorry for a potentially dumb question - QT tank coming sometime next year so I have a lot of learning to do.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Is there any normal reef tank that has insufficient nitrifying capability, with or without biomedia? I’ve never seen evidence of one.

IMO, many have too much and would be better off without it.

 

[Fish Fan]

Is there any normal reef tank that has insufficient nitrifying capability, with or without biomedia? I’ve never seen evidence of one.

IMO, many have too much and would be better off without it.

What is the danger of having too much rock or biomedia? Thanks in advance!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

What is the danger of having too much rock or biomedia? Thanks in advance!

my opinion:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ammonia-is-our-friend.1062/
6. Corals demonstrate a preference for obtaining the N (nitrogen) they need from ammonia over nitrate when both are available. Organisms using nitrate as an N source need to spend extra energy to convert the nitrate to ammonia before use.

7. Continually driving ammonia down in a reef tank may be making it unnecessarily difficult for corals to most easily obtain the nitrogen they need. Actions such as providing media designed for nitrifiers or adding nitrifying bacteria on a regular basis may thus be doing more harm than good.

8. Reef aquaria where N is in short supply may benefit from dosing ammonia, and that benefit may be greater than dosing nitrate. Ammonium bicarbonate is a good source of ammonia as it is inexpensive and readily available in food grade purity.

9. While measuring a detectable level of nitrate in a reef aquarium can be very useful to ensure there is some source of N available for corals, one should not assume that corals are primarily using that source since there are other sources that they may prefer to use (and actually be using).

 

[mjszos]

my opinion:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ammonia-is-our-friend.1062/
6. Corals demonstrate a preference for obtaining the N (nitrogen) they need from ammonia over nitrate when both are available. Organisms using nitrate as an N source need to spend extra energy to convert the nitrate to ammonia before use.

7. Continually driving ammonia down in a reef tank may be making it unnecessarily difficult for corals to most easily obtain the nitrogen they need. Actions such as providing media designed for nitrifiers or adding nitrifying bacteria on a regular basis may thus be doing more harm than good.

8. Reef aquaria where N is in short supply may benefit from dosing ammonia, and that benefit may be greater than dosing nitrate. Ammonium bicarbonate is a good source of ammonia as it is inexpensive and readily available in food grade purity.

9. While measuring a detectable level of nitrate in a reef aquarium can be very useful to ensure there is some source of N available for corals, one should not assume that corals are primarily using that source since there are other sources that they may prefer to use (and actually be using).

I was hoping you'd chime in on this subject, but I wasn't sure if it would be appropriate in the Reef Chemistry sub-forum, nor if this fell under your purview of knowledge.

Expanding on your previous point of having too much nitrifying bacteria, I'll read the article above (and feel free to tell me to RTFM if my question is answered), how is one able to gauge whether or not they have too much nitrifying bacteria, or enough media while setting up an aquarium to avoid a surplus of bacteria? Simply follow the 0.75-1.5lbs/gal rule, and progressively remove live rock/ceramic blocks until you are seeing ammonia?

Would allowing ammonia to not be consumed almost immediately not lead to sub-optimal (and potentially toxic) parameters for fish?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The issue is, IMO, the rule of thumb as applied to ammonia and nitrifiers has never been justified and I believe it is wrong.

Never once have I seen a reliable measure of ammonia in an established reef tank that was a problem.

Going along with that is a huge misunderstanding of ammonia toxicity.

Ask a dozen reefers if 2 ppm ammonia is a fish killer, and nearly all will say yes. It isn’t. The data is in the article.

And 2 ppm ammonia doesn’t happen in normal reef tanks.

 

[mjszos]

The issue is, IMO, the rule of thumb as applied to ammonia and nitrifiers has never been justified and I believe it is wrong.

Never once have I seen a reliable measure of ammonia in an established reef tank that was a problem.

Going along with that is a huge misunderstanding of ammonia toxicity.

Ask a dozen reefers if 2 ppm ammonia is a fish killer, and nearly all will say yes. It isn’t. The data is in the article.

And 2 ppm ammonia doesn’t happen in normal reef tanks.

I've not read through the whole article, but I did check the top bullets as a starting point. The presence (and potential benefit) of ammonia in low quantities is interesting, but I wonder if you've explored the macro effects of it on the aquarium. Would the presence of ammonia not lead to higher stress levels in fish, or potential immunity issues to disease due to energy being devoted to surviving the toxicity?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I've not read through the whole article, but I did check the top bullets as a starting point. The presence (and potential benefit) of ammonia in low quantities is interesting, but I wonder if you've explored the macro effects of it on the aquarium. Would the presence of ammonia not lead to higher stress levels in fish, or potential immunity issues to disease due to energy being devoted to surviving the toxicity?

I think that’s just residual worry. I address sub lethal effects in the article. Folks dosing ammonia are nearly always seeing positive results.

 

[mjszos]

I think that’s just residual worry. I address sub lethal effects in the article. Folks dosing ammonia are nearly always seeing positive results.

I gotcha. I’ll read through the rest and would love to carry on the conversation. I’m no chemist, so I happily follow the advice of those more knowledgeable than me. I do like to do my best to make sure that the items being explored aren’t done so in a vacuum, which by the amount of your work I’ve gone through I know is not the case.

Cheers and thanks as always Randy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I gotcha. I’ll read through the rest and would love to carry on the conversation. I’m no chemist, so I happily follow the advice of those more knowledgeable than me. I do like to do my best to make sure that the items being explored aren’t done so in a vacuum, which by the amount of your work I’ve gone through I know is not the case.

Cheers and thanks as always Randy.

The article has an associated discussion thread should you have further comments. :)

 

[Spare time]

That seems generous. Following the rule of thumb, that means their block is able to store as much beneficial bacteria as (at the lowest end of 0.75lbs/gal) 262.5lbs of live rock? Even halving that seems unbelievable. I'd be really curious to see their testing methodology.

The concept is awesome, being able to make more minimal looking scapes for instance with less concern for in-tank biomedia (in a FOWLR for instance).



Presumably keeping them in a media bag would solve this issue, no?

I haven't ever run a QT tank, but isn't the general consensus to avoid live rock? Wouldn't this fall in the same category? Sorry for a potentially dumb question - QT tank coming sometime next year so I have a lot of learning to do.

A lot of the medias become soft and fall apart or crumble easily.


As for QT tank, as long as the biomedia isn't calcium carbonate then yes they are good for that.

 

[schooncw]

Live rock only, for me!
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mastering-the-basics-reefing-101.922535/

 

[mjszos]

Live rock only, for me!
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mastering-the-basics-reefing-101.922535/

I'd tend to agree with you on this. I've used bioballs and the like in all of my tanks, but I've never considered the utilization of the bricks as a replacement to love rock.

 

[schooncw]

I tried the bricks. They disintegrated and made a huge mess in my sump. Never again.

 

[mjszos]

I tried the bricks. They disintegrated and made a huge mess in my sump. Never again.

This actually leads me to another question, and something immediately relevant to me...

I am in the process of breaking down a 65gal total system, moving it to a temporary 40gal breeder tank, then eventually moving it to a new 150gal total system... I wonder if keeping the brick in the breeder for 6ish weeks would allow it to build up enough nitrifying bacteria to help "skip" the cycle of the new tank, similar to putting established dry rock into a new system. With the intention of removing it after say another 6-8 weeks from the sump of the new tank. Theoretically with the amount of real estate they claim on these bricks, it would be an effective kickstart?

 

[Subsea]

I have been doing some research, and am seeing conflicting reports on the efficacy of ceramic biomedia blocks (https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/marinepure-ceramic-biomedia-plate.html) and their efficacy.

What would be the live rock bioload equivalent in terms of LB's of Marco Rock for instance versus an 8"x8"x4" plate of the above linked media? Using a 50 gallon tank (with 20gal sump), the rule of .75-1.5lb rule of thumb per would be to have between 50-70lbs of rock in the system. What amount of rock would one of these bricks accommodate for? Could you use 10-20% less rock in place of one of these plates in the sump?

Further, are these meant to be a "set it and forget it" solution, or are you meant to clean the ceramic biomedia as well? I recall being told at one point that using bioballs in an AIO that these should be cleaned as detritus builds up on them, but that would defeat the purpose as you'd be wiping out the beneficial bacteria every time they were cleaned.

Looking forward to an interesting discussion on this.

First point is that in my mature reef tank, I dose ammonia to keep up with nitrogen demand of system, so more nitrification with ceramic plates reduces nitrogen for coral.

Second point is that biofilm will restrict flow into ceramic plates.