Chaeto vs GFO

[Jguido1987]

Hello All,
I have been thinking of changing up my set up a little. I have been running GFO for a while due to an algae issue Bc of a phosphate issue. I feel as though after the past yr plus of running gfo I am starting to see some negative effects. Some of my corals just don’t seem as happy as they use to be. Maybe it’s not the GFO but I feel as if there is not enough nutrients in the tank.
So I was thinking of turning my GFO reactor into a Chaeto reactor. I have a few questions, and figure more heads are better then one and would like some feedback. I need a good full spectrum led strip light. I am going to run the light on a reverse cycle at night. I’m also hoping that will help with a PH swing. I am also curious about flow through the reactor. Is slower better then faster? With the GFO it ran slow. Also I have read some articles that claim this will also help increase the overal oxygen Bc in the “closed system” reactor the amount of CO2 used is directly from the water column which be be another plus.
Again all thoughts would be greatly appreciated and any suggestions for lighting would help.
Thanks

 

[Dennis McGrath]

Following. I've got an algae issue in one of my tanks and would like to know if I should start running GFO or Phosguard.

 

[Firemanreefkeeper]

I have chaeto in my sump growing under a kessil h80. I also have some type of hair algae with it. I have no algae in my display but I also have 2 tangs that love to eat. Nitrates run between 2 and 5ppm, red sea tester, and phosphate around 25ppb, Hanna ultra low range checker.

 

[KrisReef]

If you can, I think I would add chaeto first and get that running before you take GFO offline.

 

[Jguido1987]

I already took the gfo off line. I slowed it down gradually over two weeks. I think my problems started when I went from a buying my saltwater from my LFS and started making my own using RODI and Red Sea coral pro. I think my nutrients fell off. Honestly it could be like anything else in the hobby it could be 10 difficult problems or 1 simple problem. But I have read some benefits to the cheato reactor over using gfo for maintenance purposes.

 

[mcarroll]

Some of my corals just don’t seem as happy as they use to be. Maybe it’s not the GFO but I feel as if there is not enough nutrients in the tank.

What are your no3 and po4 test ressults like today vs historically?

How has algae growth been? Does your CUC seem to work on it? (What's in your CUC?)

You're better off ignoring pH than trying to tweak it in most cases. Focusing on alkalinity stability should take care of what matters.

What are your other recent test results?

 

[Jimbo662]

I have chaeto in my sump growing under a kessil h80. I also have some type of hair algae with it. I have no algae in my display but I also have 2 tangs that love to eat. Nitrates run between 2 and 5ppm, red sea tester, and phosphate around 25ppb, Hanna ultra low range checker.

I've got the same set up and same results. I used to run GFO but never could keep things consistent. With the chaeto all you have to do is adjust the duration your light is on to adjust your nitrate / phos levels. To me it's a more natural approach.

 

[Reefcowboy]

I just did the same thing. Ran GFO for years, never could get the color I hoped on some sps. Started running an ATS and slowly reduced the amount of GFO. As I noticed the algae at a good size, took the GFO offline.

That was the missing link in my system. Weeks after my sps colored up and obviously the algae grew much faster as well.

My phosphates and nitrates are undetectable but im sure they arent zero, which is where you want things to be. I also had to start feeding heavy which I never did before.

Chaeto is a trickier process than ATS, as chaeto might thrive one day and die suddenly without reason.
You must make sure you keep some trace elements long term such as iron.
As far as flow, just research some reactors and the rule of thumb should be pretty easy to find

 

[lion king]

Best thing I ever did was to turn my biopellet reactor reactors into macro reactors, I use a variety of macros that are available at my lfs. It balances the absorption of phosphates and nitrates and overall creates a healthier environment. Run on an opposite light cycle to keep ph and O2 levels more stable. I even converted a brs reactor and run them on all my tanks, look around you'll find alot of diy ideas. Maintenance is a snap and the long term cost is nill.

 

[Jguido1987]

My parameters are overall pretty stable. My ph is historically low. But has gotten better sense I started to dose kalk at night. I also ordered some full spectrum grow lights off of amazon and am waiting for my tennis ball size of cheato to arrive.

 

[mcarroll]

My parameters are overall pretty stable. My ph is historically low. But has gotten better sense I started to dose kalk at night. I also ordered some full spectrum grow lights off of amazon and am waiting for my tennis ball size of cheato to arrive.

what are your no3 and po4 levels?

 

[Jguido1987]

I use the ati testing so it’s more so up to interpretation. But they both look to be zero and have for a long time. But I know that there is still some measurements of both. That’s why I was thinking the gfo was starting to get to be a little too strong with my recent change to salt and switching to my own RODI system rather then my lfs water.

 

[mcarroll]

I use the ati testing so it’s more so up to interpretation. But they both look to be zero and have for a long time. But I know that there is still some measurements of both. That’s why I was thinking the gfo was starting to get to be a little too strong with my recent change to salt and switching to my own RODI system rather then my lfs water.

If your nitrates and phosphates both look like zero ("zero-ish") then you can take some corrective action to increase both.

Can you tell us more about your algae issue, or do you have a thread where that's been detailed already?

Here's a quote from another thread you might want to click over to read:

I have always thought that the best way to fight algae is to control nutrients. Using these methods Ive lowered phosphate and nitrate to zero of very low and found that within weeks most of my coral were either bleached or dead. I started researching further and it turns out that coral actually like nutrients very much even many recent articles have shown that the old (0 nitrate 0 phos algae control) might be a terrible idea for a reef tank. Here is one good example:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5441187/#!po=46.2121

I think reefkeepers have been caught up on the idea that the pristine reefs dont have ANY algae and it is a pest that shouldnt be there.. However if you take a closer look at any reef you will see that there are 100s of billions of herbivores there in the same habitat that the coral is growing in. Therefore it should be obvious that all of these grazers are eating something and that the reefs pristine water isnt what prevents algae from growing.

Basically Ive heard this problem 1000s of times: "i have so much algae its taking over my tank" and response 2 is always "How is your nutrient control?" When in fact the correct response probably should be "how is your clean up crew?"

Not even a few years ago the goal in reef keeping was to keep nitrates at zero.. But now we are seeing that many of the most successful tanks have 10-20 or even higher nitrates.

Lots of good info there so pls read! :), but the crux is that you can't eliminate algae by secondary nutrient controls in most cases.

In fact, very-low nutrients can even cause algae issues by way of starving out competing organisms.

 

[Jguido1987]

I don’t have an algae issue. I use to, and I’m proud I beat that problem (for now). I had GHA growing everywhere. It was growing over every rock, on the glass, on the sand. I was ready to shut my tank down. But that was almost two yrs ago. I battled it for a 6 months and then started to use GFO in a reactor and that cleaned up my tank very well. My Tank has grown so much over the past yr.
I think I’m on the same page as you as far as nutrients and algae. Zero nutrients isn’t a great idea the reef needs to feed on something. Unless I’m misunderstanding you. That is why I am going to replace the GFO with a cheato in my reactor. I do feed my Tank with reef roids, marine snow, and fuel. After every water change. I could prob do it more often but then I worry about excess nutrients. I also do the Red Sea trace elements a,b,c,d. At each water change.
The only recent change I have made is making my own salt water. I got a brand new RODI system for my home and am using Red Sea coral pro salt. I use to use my LFS mix of reef crystals. So I was thinking my NO3 and PO4 may have changed or “improved” and the need for GFO became excessive.
I usually know something is wrong visually before I can tell through a test. I go by if I start to see some GHA growing my nutrients are too high and I cut down on feeding. My euphylias and Duncan just aren’t as happy as they have been. My monti digi are very happy though.
Worst case scenario I have to switch back to running gfo.
I just never know if “my logic” transfers to actual reefing practices well. So I’m always looking for advice and willing to listen to people who know better then me.

 

[40B Knasty]

I turned a Seaclone protein skimmer into a chaeto reactor. So there is some good flow going through the chaeto from the MaxiJet 1200. All I did was take an LED strip. Laid it out. Took some electric tape and pulled it out the length of the strip. Wrapped/sticking it to the cylinder. Once I had a good wrap around it. I finished covering the strip with more tape. Most people leave a little uncovered, but I didn't because I didn't want the lights blinding the room. The LED strip consists of or 4 red and then one 1 blue. Then 4 red 1 blue all the way around.
The thing you need to understand doing this is, the amount of chaeto to tank water value ratio. Here it is on video. Check it out. Hope this helps you out.

 

[rock_lobster]

If your nitrates and phosphates both look like zero ("zero-ish") then you can take some corrective action to increase both.

Can you tell us more about your algae issue, or do you have a thread where that's been detailed already?

Here's a quote from another thread you might want to click over to read:


Lots of good info there so pls read! :), but the crux is that you can't eliminate algae by secondary nutrient controls in most cases.

In fact, very-low nutrients can even cause algae issues by way of starving out competing organisms.

Yes that is especially true. There seems to be a gap in the understanding of how resilient many of these micro and even macro algae and bacteria are. Most of them will persist or even thrive in nutrient depleted or imbalanced tanks. Plus they can often utilize many different sources of energy.

 

[mcarroll]

So I was thinking my NO3 and PO4 may have changed or “improved” and the need for GFO became excessive.
I usually know something is wrong visually before I can tell through a test. I go by if I start to see some GHA growing

It is excellent to have gut instincts about your tank.

But I would still test before taking action.

Tests simply give you another data point to make sure that you are on the right track – there are many patterns that looks similar if you don't have enough data points to compare. Ironically "too little" and "too much" can present similar symptoms, which can cause someone to add treatments that go in the wrong direction. The fact that corals and algae have such different reaction times to environmental changes makes diagnosing that much trickier.

You have to put more doubt on test kits results when you are manipulating the parameter that the kit is testing for, such as phosphates being manipulated with GFO or nitrates with carbon dosing or massive algae growth with both. In those cases you are messing with the test kits results, making the results less indicitive of overall conditions.

FWIW Euphillia and Duncans are both known as nutrient-lovers. Personally I would do a nitrate and a phosphate test just for the confirmation.

Also Reef Crystals and RSCP are not all that similar if I recall correctly. It's possible this may explain some of the post-switch differences?

Do you normally do no testing at all? Or just no testing for nutrients?

 

[Jguido1987]

I do test my system often. I def need to invest in a better testing kit but the api tests are just so easy. My test results for my NO3 and PO4 come back in the zero close to zero as far as my eyes can tell. But my corals are growing very well. I looked at pictures from a yr ago and what I see today and my growth is doing well.
That’s why I was thinking the recent change in what I consider better quality water changes may have bumped my nutrients levels lower then desired. And the “zero” visually may have actually been closer to a true zero. It may also be that many of my corals are much larger then they were a yr ago and the Tank just requires more to balance what is being consumed on a regular basis.
Switching from a gfo to a cheato reactor I am hoping that the nutrients are more balanced out. If there is “excess” the cheato will grow faster. I have read that a lot of ppl will not run GFO long term Bc it tends to be too good at pulling out excess nutrients. I also have read the benefits of a properly running cheato reactor for PH balance, and improved oxygen. Also a great place to grow pods.
I may have forgotten to mention that I have an AIO JBJ Nanocube. So not having a true sump limits some of my options.

Worst case senario my tank crashes and I get to tell my wife Im gonna start over and get all new stuff, in that situation praying for me would be greatly appreciated.

But I will do another test later today the gfo has been off for a week now im also almost a week into my last WC and I have been increasing feeding, and let you know the results.
Thanks again.

 

[mcarroll]

I do test my system often. I def need to invest in a better testing kit but the api tests are just so easy. My test results for my NO3 and PO4 come back in the zero close to zero as far as my eyes can tell.

You can't get specific numbers from API kits, but that's far from being useless. :) You have the exact info you need IMO. All I would say if you had posted those numbers and said "are those good?" is that maintaining those conditions with a growing population of corals, algae, etc can be problematic.

You basically did this "math" already, so I'm just saying "yep!" in detail here since it seems you're less confident than you need to be. :) :)

But my corals are growing very well. I looked at pictures from a yr ago and what I see today and my growth is doing well.

That means that considering all nutrient sources (thankfully not just dissolved NO3 and PO4) your corals had no problems.

That’s why I was thinking the recent change in what I consider better quality water changes may have bumped my nutrients levels lower then desired.

I don't see the connection unless you started doing larger volume ("better quality") water changes.

What could have changed and at least seems more likelty with the change of salt mix is the mineral parameters of the new saltwater going into the system.

Check out Reef Crystals vs RSCP here: Saltmix Parameters bring on the test results
and here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505

The second one is old, but may be a good guideline. You might be better off testing your own salt yourself and just comparing your own results though. You can see there's a fair amount of variability in test numbers even within brands known to be really homogenous. (Local test conditions matter A LOT for several reasons.)

And the “zero” visually may have actually been closer to a true zero.

I think you're probably right about this!

These kits don't lie, they just don't give precise results. Still useful though!

If your color turns yellow (< 0.25), you should be doing nothing to reduce phosphates IMO. Run a test on pure water if you need a reference-yellow to compare with. If your test is really yellow you have rights to worry a little. Either you're using nutrient-reduction when (maybe) you shouldn't be, or there aren't enough nutrients going into the system. Things might be fine, but be sure. Low-phosphate really can be dangerous for corals.

Check out this photo that shows growth under four sets of conditions...of high, low and mixed high and low nutrients....you can see that corals grown under low-P suffered in growth...and in the scope pics you can see they suffer in health as well (HP=high phosphate):

From: Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

If your test actually starts to look green (>0.25), you should check other parameters and see if anything is out of balance. Etc.

Simple! :)

It may also be that many of my corals are much larger then they were a yr ago and the Tank just requires more to balance what is being consumed on a regular basis.

Without a doubt bigger colonies will use more nutrient (and more flow!).

I also have read the benefits of a properly running cheato reactor for PH balance, and improved oxygen. Also a great place to grow pods.

It's also one of the best places to harbor dino's, so it's not all roses. ;) Only half kidding since that's literally true. If you're running a protein skimmer, that (massive amount of aeration) should be all you need.

If I'm not mistaken pods will populate an empty reactor too, or one with a few rocks in it....any form of refugium will. Macro algae will compete with corals for nutrients though, so it's more complicating than just a pod factory or running a protein skimmer.

I may have forgotten to mention that I have an AIO JBJ Nanocube. So not having a true sump limits some of my options.

Skimmer? :) (A quick google suggests they exist.)

the gfo has been off for a week now im also almost a week into my last WC and I have been increasing feeding

Two changes at once, but I agree with both. :) I'd give it a few weeks of maintaining things like this before you make any more changes or come to any conclusions about these changes.

I'm glad corals are mostly doing fine - hopefully those two holdouts will come around too. When they get damaged or tweaked it can take weeks or more for them to turn around sometimes, so have patience there too. :)

 

[Jguido1987]

I did test everything and my parameters are ok
Ph 8.0
NO3 reads 0
PO4 reads 0 (maybe a little darker but not into the .25)
Kh is between 8-9
Ca is 360 (lower then usual)

I do have a skimmer I have the aquamaxx hob.

Thanks MCARROL for all your advice, help and interest in my question. I’m def gonna read through the salt test you sent.

And I agree patience is very important, unfortunately I have never had much of it.