HELP major losses in my quarantine system

[sm2630]

HELP! this fish has been in my quarantine system about a week and a half. He arrived with some shipping wounds. I did pretty aggressive treatment as I've been after one of these for a long time, and I found him dead this morning. I did a full round of kanaplex, nitrofurazone directly in the water, along with Metroplex. Obviously, I've been keeping eye on my ammonia and all my levels checked out perfectly. My display tank is perfectly fine with no symptoms or anything, but this is the second loss I've had in this quarantine system in a couple weeks despite bacteria medicating, along with therapeutic copper, despite the obvious wounds, can anybody identify what is possibly going on? I had a local store owner about an hour and a half away from me look at some samples and he was not able to identify protozoans. He had heavily breathing for several days before this, which has Venn communicated to the seller. I also had a veterinarian prescribe betadine and silver sulfa cream for the wounds a few days ago. I did it the first day as I felt it was necessary, but the consistent stress of catching this fish just did not seem worth it to me. I do have another compromised conspicuous angel fish in my quarantine system. I'm definitely gonna start the bacterial regimen again as there was probably A large bacterial event, as soon as he died. sorry if the video is a little blurry, they're screenshots from a video that would not upload on here. Please help, I'm now nearing $6000 in losses a conspicuous angel, this one and a very expensive hybrid have died in this tank in the last couple weeks, despite heavily medicating that being said, there are fish in this quarantine system that are perfectly fine, a pair of clownfish that have remained unaffected by this. it seems like the only ones that have been heavily compromised are the ones with pre-existing conditions and wounds

 

[sm2630]

I should also note, obviously I've been keeping an eye on my levels oxygenating heavily and doing temperature and pH matched water changes as needed in regards to medicating UV sterilizer was turned off

 

[vetteguy53081]

HELP! this fish has been in my quarantine system about a week and a half. He arrived with some shipping wounds. I did pretty aggressive treatment as I've been after one of these for a long time, and I found him dead this morning. I did a full round of kanaplex, nitrofurazone directly in the water, along with Metroplex. Obviously, I've been keeping eye on my ammonia and all my levels checked out perfectly. My display tank is perfectly fine with no symptoms or anything, but this is the second loss I've had in this quarantine system in a couple weeks despite bacteria medicating, along with therapeutic copper, despite the obvious wounds, can anybody identify what is possibly going on? I had a local store owner about an hour and a half away from me look at some samples and he was not able to identify protozoans. He had heavily breathing for several days before this, which has Venn communicated to the seller. I also had a veterinarian prescribe betadine and silver sulfa cream for the wounds a few days ago. I did it the first day as I felt it was necessary, but the consistent stress of catching this fish just did not seem worth it to me. I do have another compromised conspicuous angel fish in my quarantine system. I'm definitely gonna start the bacterial regimen again as there was probably A large bacterial event, as soon as he died. sorry if the video is a little blurry, they're screenshots from a video that would not upload on here. Please help, I'm now nearing $6000 in losses a conspicuous angel, this one and a very expensive hybrid have died in this tank in the last couple weeks, despite heavily medicating that being said, there are fish in this quarantine system that are perfectly fine, a pair of clownfish that have remained unaffected by this. it seems like the only ones that have been heavily compromised are the ones with pre-existing conditions and wounds

Ungortunately these kits offer false test resulkts and may be higher that shown. I suggest getting/using Hanna or Salifert brand kits and and for now taking a water sample to a store that does NOT use Api kits and have them test your ammonia and nitrates and compare readings- then you'll know where your levels truly are at
I need brighter pics if possible but early signs suggest flukes and if true, you would have seen Heavy breathing, sudden darting, scratching, loss of appetite as examples. If you were using copper, what type and what level?
Mixing Kanaplex and Metroplex is/was a Huge no-No and may have been a contributor .... Do not mix meds and use Metro when absolutely necessary and it has to be precise by weight

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

HELP! this fish has been in my quarantine system about a week and a half. He arrived with some shipping wounds. I did pretty aggressive treatment as I've been after one of these for a long time, and I found him dead this morning. I did a full round of kanaplex, nitrofurazone directly in the water, along with Metroplex. Obviously, I've been keeping eye on my ammonia and all my levels checked out perfectly. My display tank is perfectly fine with no symptoms or anything, but this is the second loss I've had in this quarantine system in a couple weeks despite bacteria medicating, along with therapeutic copper, despite the obvious wounds, can anybody identify what is possibly going on? I had a local store owner about an hour and a half away from me look at some samples and he was not able to identify protozoans. He had heavily breathing for several days before this, which has Venn communicated to the seller. I also had a veterinarian prescribe betadine and silver sulfa cream for the wounds a few days ago. I did it the first day as I felt it was necessary, but the consistent stress of catching this fish just did not seem worth it to me. I do have another compromised conspicuous angel fish in my quarantine system. I'm definitely gonna start the bacterial regimen again as there was probably A large bacterial event, as soon as he died. sorry if the video is a little blurry, they're screenshots from a video that would not upload on here. Please help, I'm now nearing $6000 in losses a conspicuous angel, this one and a very expensive hybrid have died in this tank in the last couple weeks, despite heavily medicating that being said, there are fish in this quarantine system that are perfectly fine, a pair of clownfish that have remained unaffected by this. it seems like the only ones that have been heavily compromised are the ones with pre-existing conditions and wounds

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

It's really difficult to determine issues after a fish has died - out of the water, they just don't show usable symptoms.

I'm concerned about the fish having wounds. It was tank raised, correct? If you are getting tank raised fish direct from Biota, I would skip quarantine altogether and get them into a stable aquarium right away.

As a side note - never use betadine as a top dressing for wounds in a small tank, it rinses off and can be toxic. Also, people end up using Betadine scrub in some cases, and that's a soap!

I'm also not a fan of API test kits, they are tricky to read. I would use a Seachem badge AND the API test to try and better monitor the ammonia levels.

 

[sm2630]

I use copper safe at therapeutic levels, which makes me apprehensive about flukes along with UV sterilizer, but it was off at the time because of medicating I should also note at the time of death, I had already been stripping the medication from the water with carbon for about 24 to 36 hours, and the UV sterilizer was back on

 

[sm2630]

HELP! this fish has been in my quarantine system about a week and a half. He arrived with some shipping wounds. I did pretty aggressive treatment as I've been after one of these for a long time, and I found him dead this morning. I did a full round of kanaplex, nitrofurazone directly in the water, along with Metroplex. Obviously, I've been keeping eye on my ammonia and all my levels checked out perfectly. My display tank is perfectly fine with no symptoms or anything, but this is the second loss I've had in this quarantine system in a couple weeks despite bacteria medicating, along with therapeutic copper, despite the obvious wounds, can anybody identify what is possibly going on? I had a local store owner about an hour and a half away from me look at some samples and he was not able to identify protozoans. He had heavily breathing for several days before this, which has Venn communicated to the seller. I also had a veterinarian prescribe betadine and silver sulfa cream for the wounds a few days ago. I did it the first day as I felt it was necessary, but the consistent stress of catching this fish just did not seem worth it to me. I do have another compromised conspicuous angel fish in my quarantine system. I'm definitely gonna start the bacterial regimen again as there was probably A large bacterial event, as soon as he died. sorry if the video is a little blurry, they're screenshots from a video that would not upload on here. Please help, I'm now nearing $6000 in losses a conspicuous angel, this one and a very expensive hybrid have died in this tank in the last couple weeks, despite heavily medicating that being said, there are fish in this quarantine system that are perfectly fine, a pair of clownfish that have remained unaffected by this. it seems like the only ones that have been heavily compromised are the ones with pre-existing conditions and wounds

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

It's really difficult to determine issues after a fish has died - out of the water, they just don't show usable symptoms.

I'm concerned about the fish having wounds. It was tank raised, correct? If you are getting tank raised fish direct from Biota, I would skip quarantine altogether and get them into a stable aquarium right away.

As a side note - never use betadine as a top dressing for wounds in a small tank, it rinses off and can be toxic. Also, people end up using Betadine scrub in some cases, and that's a soap!

I'm also not a fan of API test kits, they are tricky to read. I would use a Seachem badge AND the API test to try and better monitor the ammonia levels.

no, this is a wild fish from RVS, hence the quarantine. Also, the doctor did give me that concern as well after the top dressing. He was left in a bucket of tank water separately for 30 minutes with an airstone. That was several days ago. He seemed to accept the treatment fine, but it did seem stressful bringing him out to treat him, so I did not repeat. He survived for about two days after the treatment

 

[sm2630]

I will get the alternative test is done as soon as the store is open. I did retest again, showing no ammonia along with all the other fish in the tank with him, breathing normal, etc. I'm not an expert, hence the post, but my suspicion is opportunistic bacterial infection due to the wounds sustained pre arrival

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

no, this is a wild fish from RVS, hence the quarantine. Also, the doctor did give me that concern as well after the top dressing. He was left in a bucket of tank water separately for 30 minutes with an airstone. That was several days ago. He seemed to accept the treatment fine, but it did seem stressful bringing him out to treat him, so I did not repeat. He survived for about two days after the treatment

Yeah - all bets are off with wild caught. A friend of mine used to import from New Caledonia back around 1980, they came in rough even then (long shipping time to Detroit). Having RVS as an intermediary is an unknown variable to me, but unless they tank the fish and stabilize them, it could make things worse. Then, if they DID stabilize them before export, the chances of them picking up flukes is pretty great. Additionally, if you had an intermediary import it from RVS for you, that adds a second/third "bounce" to the process. Was the fish ever shipped via overnight, FedEx or UPS? I try to avoid that with high value shipments....

I know you don't want to hear this, but if I wanted a conspic, I'd get a Biota/Poma Labs one and hold it in its own tank and grow it up for 6 months or so.....

 

[sm2630]

no, left out some valuable information. It came from RVS, but it was with NY Aquatica for at least a week. Arrived with the Gill and head wound was eating, etc, but continued degradation. Even with the medicating, as far as flukes, obviously no symptom is guaranteed, but I did not see any flashing cloudy eyes hanging out and high oxygen areas or high flow areas. I started stripping the medication from the system yesterday with carbon most of the day, as I did notice the loss of appetite, but I figured that was due to the medicating did a temperature matched and salinity matched water change yesterday and notice the decline happened quickly after

 

[sm2630]

no, this is a wild fish from RVS, hence the quarantine. Also, the doctor did give me that concern as well after the top dressing. He was left in a bucket of tank water separately for 30 minutes with an airstone. That was several days ago. He seemed to accept the treatment fine, but it did seem stressful bringing him out to treat him, so I did not repeat. He survived for about two days after the treatment

Yeah - all bets are off with wild caught. A friend of mine used to import from New Caledonia back around 1980, they came in rough even then (long shipping time to Detroit). Having RVS as an intermediary is an unknown variable to me, but unless they tank the fish and stabilize them, it could make things worse. Then, if they DID stabilize them before export, the chances of them picking up flukes is pretty great. Additionally, if you had an intermediary import it from RVS for you, that adds a second/third "bounce" to the process. Was the fish ever shipped via overnight, FedEx or UPS? I try to avoid that with high value shipments....

I know you don't want to hear this, but if I wanted a conspic, I'd get a Biota/Poma Labs one and hold it in its own tank and grow it up for 6 months or so.....

The conspicuous did come from Poma labs. I got two I have a strong suspicion they're compromises what started this bacterial problem. They became stressed with each other, even though I quickly separated them, broke out in lymphocytes, and secondary bacterial presence quickly started showing. I made a video about it on my TikTok account. I've never seen anything like it. After the death of my first conspicuous in this quarantine system is when all the problems started, hence the bacterial treatments. unfortunately, this fish was in quarantine at the time of the first conspicuous angels' death

 

[sm2630]

The replies on here make me nervous about flukes, but quite frankly I have not seen any of the typical symptoms: cloudy eyes, flashing, high flow area, lurking, etc. I did notice heavy breathing, but both gills were moving in unison, not one more than the other, and no physical symptoms until yesterday, which appeared pretty quickly up until yesterday evening. He didn't even have the marks all over his body. This could all be post-mortem distress as far as his appearance. Only thing visible up until last night was the two wounds

 

[sm2630]

in regards to the remaining conspicuous angel, he has elevated breathing and there's cyproflax in the tank. which is the only medication currently I am apprehensive to add any kind of fluke treatment such as prazi. I got the prescription Cipro yesterday, but I was apprehensive to add it after just stripping all the other medications and major water changes, but after seeing the other one die this morning, I had to make the tough choice to try and save the conspicuous as he has open wounds where his lympho site growths fell off

 

[W31Olds]

First off, did your Angels really have Lympho? This seems like a misdiagnosis. Lympho is almost never on the Body of the Fish (usually on the Fin Tips) and it takes time to develop and does not leave wounds as it slowly disappears usually over weeks.
Can you post the Videos and some Pics of your QT System and the remaining Fisk and the TicTock?
FYI, these $$$ Angels should be in 40 Gallon Breeders and separate systems for QT Control.
I have purchased many Fish from NY Aquatic and they often have Flukes, Ich not as much because Mike runs Copper but full QT is a must.

 

[sm2630]

First off, did your Angels really have Lympho? This seems like a misdiagnosis. Lympho is almost never on the Body of the Fish (usually on the Fin Tips) and it takes time to develop and does not leave wounds as it slowly disappears usually over weeks.
Can you post the Videos and some Pics of your QT System and the remaining Fisk and the TicTock?
FYI, these $$$ Angels should be in 40 Gallon Breeders and separate systems for QT Control.
I have purchased many Fish from NY Aquatic and they often have Flukes, Ich not as much because Mike runs Copper but full QT is a must.

yes, I understand that. That's why this is all going on in a quarantine tank. The expensive angelfish were separated for quite some time until this broke out, hence being put back into the quarantine system. The blue spot recently arrived, came from NY with some wounds on it, and needed to go through quarantine, which is why they were both in the quarantine system. Unfortunately, I don't have the means for a third hospital tank right now. My display tank is perfectly fine with some high-value fish in there. No symptoms whatsoever for several weeks now

Both of the conspicuous angels started with growths like this that were definitely stress-related. and I have absolutely seen Lymphaocytes on the body of other angels, one of my false personifiers had it on its body a while ago and it completely healed, so I disagree with that statement. While this could definitely be a misdiagnosis, all I know is that they both broke out with pink and white growths that have been extremely resistant two medications has a last ditch effort right now. He is in a fully clean system with cipro and right now. Any recommendations on what other medications I could try? Please let me know at this point. I've exhausted every resource except for formalin as I imagine that would be very painful with open wounds and a disservice to saving the fish

 

[sm2630]

I also shared these images with poma and my concerns with the extreme degradation of these fish, and he had no idea or any input really, just I've never seen it before. Sorry. That's what I got for $5000

 

[sm2630]

First off, did your Angels really have Lympho? This seems like a misdiagnosis. Lympho is almost never on the Body of the Fish (usually on the Fin Tips) and it takes time to develop and does not leave wounds as it slowly disappears usually over weeks.
Can you post the Videos and some Pics of your QT System and the remaining Fisk and the TicTock?
FYI, these $$$ Angels should be in 40 Gallon Breeders and separate systems for QT Control.
I have purchased many Fish from NY Aquatic and they often have Flukes, Ich not as much because Mike runs Copper but full QT is a must.

I should also add that I've seen zero evidence for flukes. They are not hanging out in high flow areas, there's no physical symptoms, and in my experience, when flukes are advanced enough to take a fish's life, there's absolutely some other sign besides the compromised breathing. This fish was not showing any signs of racing, pacing, flashing, etc, while I'm not saying it's impossible. I just don't see any physical symptoms. I also examined the body quite closely and the gills, while I know that gill flukes are pretty small, I did put the body in freshwater immediately after death and did not see anything fall off

 

[W31Olds]

I don't see this as Lympho, but let's have Jay and Vette take a look. I take it this a Pic of the one that's still alive? How long have you had these 2 and they did not have those growths when you got them, correct? Sorry, I did not mean Flukes killed your Fish only that NY Aquatics' fish often have them, so treatment is imperative.
@Jay Hemdal
@vetteguy53081

 

[vetteguy53081]

I also shared these images with poma and my concerns with the extreme degradation of these fish, and he had no idea or any input really, just I've never seen it before. Sorry. That's what I got for $5000

This is severe bacterial and Outcome will be 50/50 but to start with, get this fish into a sterile tank with new water and treat with Seachem Kanaplex which is absorbed well by a fish with airstone added and a watch on ammonia level with a RELIABLE ammonia test kit such as Hanna or Salifert brand

 

[sm2630]

i've consulted with a veterinarian and a few people about this. The first conspicuous was here for nearly 7 months without issue. The mistake came when I decided to add a second one after partnering with Poma at great length. He said it was absolutely not going to be an issue and completely doable. That was absolutely not the case. They did OK in the tank together for about a week after the new one arrived, then the aggression started from my established. I quickly separated them, but even though I acted quickly enough to stop the aggression from becoming physical, the lympho started on the one who passed away. Once those growths fell off, it left behind open wounds like I have never ever seen with lympho, which is why I'm also so thrown off by this whole situation, anyway, he died and even though the other one was in a completely separate system away from him, it still continued growing the limpo, and they're the only two fish in my system with this issue even though I have some pretty delicate and notoriously hard to keep fish in there. That being said, the conspicuous that didn't make it passed away in the quarantine system, and I truly believe that gave the foothold for a bacterial event, unfortunately causing the loss of this fish. It was smooth sailing for a long time until I added the second conspicuous, and boy do I regret it. all this information aside, yes, this is the surviving one. I am desperate to save him. Any guidance would be truly, truly appreciated. He is currently in a tank solo with Cipro. I've never caught myself praying so much for a fish in my life. These fish were the reason I got into the hobby, and it's turned into such a devastating experience. I was after a conspicuous and a blue spot. The fish this post is about for nearly a decade. I finally put myself in a financial position to be able to do it, and it has pretty much cost me enough to really consider leaving the hobby right now. whatever it is at this point has been resistant to copper and full regimen of kanolex , Two doses of Metro and nitrofurazone. I ran these all together after consulting with the owner of fishotel.com who has successfully dosed the three of these in sequence with each other successfully, obviously keeping an eye on ammonia when I saw the lack of success, I ran carbon for almost 24 hours, did a massive water change, and have now moved onto cypro with the first dose. I'd be leaning towards trying formalin as a last ditch effort, but that to me sounds like it would be extremely painful with the open sores and counterintuitive to his recovery

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

yes, I understand that. That's why this is all going on in a quarantine tank. The expensive angelfish were separated for quite some time until this broke out, hence being put back into the quarantine system. The blue spot recently arrived, came from NY with some wounds on it, and needed to go through quarantine, which is why they were both in the quarantine system. Unfortunately, I don't have the means for a third hospital tank right now. My display tank is perfectly fine with some high-value fish in there. No symptoms whatsoever for several weeks now

Both of the conspicuous angels started with growths like this that were definitely stress-related. and I have absolutely seen Lymphaocytes on the body of other angels, one of my false personifiers had it on its body a while ago and it completely healed, so I disagree with that statement. While this could definitely be a misdiagnosis, all I know is that they both broke out with pink and white growths that have been extremely resistant two medications has a last ditch effort right now. He is in a fully clean system with cipro and right now. Any recommendations on what other medications I could try? Please let me know at this point. I've exhausted every resource except for formalin as I imagine that would be very painful with open wounds and a disservice to saving the fish

The lesions on the trailing edge of the dorsal and anal fins is Lymphocystis - but very severe. I've seen fish easily survive that though. There also seems to be Lymphocystis around the two body lesions, but their original origin/cause isn't clear to me - probably Vibrio bacteria though. Lymphocystis often starts at the site of some injury, so that makes sense to me. The fish *could* also have flukes, but as you noted, you aren't seeing typical symptoms of that. Besides, fluke infections take weeks to become severe infections, not so acute as this.

I'm struggling to follow the scenario here, I'm very confused: you had three fish, a wild blue spot from RVS and then two Poma Labs conspics? The wild one died but the two conspics are still alive? Can you post a video of them?