Changing sandbed on SPS only tank. Good idea?

[Brian W]

I am about to put my tank and sump in a new stand I built and was wondering if taking out my current sandbed and adding new live sand will have a detrimental impact on my sps.

I have a few mini colonies of acropora, Millepora, Tenuis and Digitata as well as about 12 frags. No other corals in my tank besides sps.

I have read as well as seen some videos on a negative impact on the corals when you remove a sandbed. BRS is one main example.

I have 3 filter sponges in my sump as well as bio balls from marine pure loaded with bacteria. My main reason behind wanting to change my sandbed is I have been fighting dinoflagellates in my sandbed since March. Its not a massive outbreak but there are 4-5 spots on the sandbed that I just can't get rid of it. I've tried everything except an expensive UV filter. I just can't afford it at the moment. I have a tiny UV filter on it from my 14 gal tank but all it does is keep the water clear. Its just not the right kind of UV sterilizer to eliminate dinos.

This setup is 1 year and 6 months old. However the rock is a little over 4 years old as I used it in my previous tank, and it has never been out of water besides the short time it took to transfer it from the old tank to new tank. Sandbed is 1 year and 6 months old.

Should I just keep my old sandbed or take it out and add a new one? I'd rather deal with the dinos and keep my sticks vs potentially risking my sticks dying.

Thanks.

 

[brandon429]

Brs did it wrong, here’s the right way with 100+ outcomes and updates

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

they didn’t do the light ramping portion, which is what stops bleaching. From that thread you can choose these options:

pull bed, rinse in tap water, put back



pull bed, replace with a new (still tap rinsed) bed


pull bed and rinse, but wait to put it back in until greater system shows no dinos. The live rock you have instantly handles the bioload in the tank with or without sand which is why what we do with sand doesn’t matter, as long as it’s inherent waste isn’t strewn around the tank which can kill the setup.

 

[Brian W]

Brs did it wrong, here’s the right way with 100+ outcomes and updates

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

they didn’t do the light ramping portion, which is what stops bleaching. From that thread you can choose these options:

pull bed, rinse in tap water, put back



pull bed, replace with a new (still tap rinsed) bed


pull bed and rinse, but wait to put it back in until greater system shows no dinos. The live rock you have instantly handles the bioload in the tank with or without sand which is why what we do with sand doesn’t matter, as long as it’s inherent waste isn’t strewn around the tank which can kill the setup.

Thank you.

 

[MabuyaQ]

UV isn't a miracle cure for dino's because it doesn't increase competition from bacteria and/or microalgae that under normal circumstances outcompete dino's. All UV those is decrease the reproductive potential of some dino's making it easier for the competition to take back control. The key is to first provide those favourable conditions, which is mostly about NO3 and PO4 levels at the right ratio.

So without any information on your nutrient levels, means of export it is impossible to give any advice. Removing your sandbed may actually be even detrimental in your fight against dino's.

 

[KorD]

When I upgrade tanks, I only keep a cup or two of the old sand for adding good bacteria. If you have time and and do not have a sponge in your sump, add one so you can also get more good bacteria to add to the new system.

I do not use crushed coral, I use pool filter sand, but it is all done the same way

 

[Brian W]

UV isn't a miracle cure for dino's because it doesn't increase competition from bacteria and/or microalgae that under normal circumstances outcompete dino's. All UV those is decrease the reproductive potential of some dino's making it easier for the competition to take back control. The key is to first provide those favourable conditions, which is mostly about NO3 and PO4 levels at the right ratio.

So without any information on your nutrient levels, means of export it is impossible to give any advice. Removing your sandbed may actually be even detrimental in your fight against dino's.

Current parameters
Sg 1.026
Temp 78
Alk 9.0 (I like to keep at 8.5 preferably)
Cal 430
Mag 1500 (cannot get this down, using Fritz)
NO3 5ppm
PO4 .05

Initially back in March I siphoned the sandbed thinking that would fix it but realized this was not tge correct thing to do and I stead fed the dinos by doing the water change.

I've tried Dr. Tims method twice and it works initially but comes back.

I've been keeping my NO3 at 5-10 ppm and my PO4 at .05 - .08.

I have done a few small water changes since March. I know this may not be the best to beat dinos but my tank needed a WC.

I am aware that UV slows down the dinos from reproducing and not elimates it. I am just thinking a UV sterilizer along with other methods and maintaining certain nutrient levels will not hurt in getting rid of dinos.

My nutrients are high enough in my system that I am seeing hair algae near where my dinos are on my sandbed as well as some turf/film or other algae on my overflow.

What would you recommend I do to help get rid of dinos? Im open to try any suggestions. Thanks.

 

[brandon429]

Removing sandbeds does not cause dinos

numerous examples above.

and uv afterwards is ideal. We didn’t need to know any params in hundreds of fixes, it’s ideal for this tank above because it’s a nano. You aren’t bound by the rules of large inaccessible tanks by owning a nano, you have accessibility in your favor

it is a misnomer that water changes or sandbed work spurns dinos, five years proof in one thread. If water changes or sandbed removals causes dinos, that would be forty pages of unhappy reefers.

where the mis info came from: people with dinos did partial water changes or water changes on top of filthy beds, it mixed up items, and dinos were boosted. We never do any of that above.


additional proof that physical control works: try and find a single pico reef online with dinos, they’re all trained rip cleaners, and have no enduring invasions including dinos. Dinos are the top scourge in reefing, if thats what you even have which is why care techniques are so polarizing.


Where nutrient adjusting is said to be the best fix, I can show several dinos+ GHA tank challenges after adjusting nutrients, and in all fairness param adjustments have worked for many but not at the cure rates above.

the smaller the reef, the easier it is to be permanently dinos free by changing all the water, and cleaning the sand. If you apply what we applied there, what is the % chance you will be unhappy going off our results?

 

[brandon429]

Check the last five pages for some of the most thorough jobs, those were big tanks too ~100 gallon setups yours would be a breeze.

 

[Brian W]

Removing sandbeds does not cause dinos

numerous examples above.

and uv afterwards is ideal. We didn’t need to know any params in hundreds of fixes, it’s ideal for this tank above because it’s a nano. You aren’t bound by the rules of large inaccessible tanks by owning a nano, you have accessibility in your favor

it is a misnomer that water changes or sandbed work spurns dinos, five years proof in one thread. If water changes or sandbed removals causes dinos, that would be forty pages of unhappy reefers.

where the mis info came from: people with dinos did partial water changes or water changes on top of filthy beds, it mixed up items, and dinos were boosted. We never do any of that above.


additional proof that physical control works: try and find a single pico reef online with dinos, they’re all trained rip cleaners, and have no enduring invasions including dinos. Dinos are the top scourge in reefing, if thats what you even have which is why care techniques are so polarizing.


Where nutrient adjusting is said to be the best fix, I can show several dinos+ GHA tank challenges after adjusting nutrients, and in all fairness param adjustments have worked for many but not at the cure rates above.

the smaller the reef, the easier it is to be permanently dinos free by changing all the water, and cleaning the sand. If you apply what we applied there, what is the % chance you will be unhappy going off our results?

I read the first page of your thread earlier this morning, I cant wait to start reading on page 2 today sometime.. Very pumped about removing my filthy sandbed and replacing it with new sand.,

Should I go with live sand or dry sand? Im leaning towards dry sand since it is cheaper.

Thanks.

 

[brandon429]

Either one is fine, since you are inputting new sand into an existing tank the new sand needs pre rinsing even if it is live. If we add unrinsed caribsea sand wet or dry into the tank a mud cloud w result


take the rocks out and swish them roughly in clean saltwater too we r trying to jet off any hangers on for a fresh start. After it’s all fixed I’d recommend now taking the classic dinos suppression steps especially adding some sort of grazing pods mix, actual predators for dinos


then adjust nitrate and phosphate accordingly, in the clean condition not the invaded condition.

 

[jda]

Removing sand, keeping it or adding more is not going to significantly change your outcome. Dinos will still be there if they are going to be. They will disappear if they are going to. There are differences in running tanks with or without sand, but replacing it just resets the clock for the most part.

Whatever you do, don't believe a guy who never has done this and just like to champion it on message boards.

I use sand - have for a long time. It needs work every now and then, but is easy, keeps my fish Ich free and manages my N and P for me. I have a rebuild thread if you want to search for it. I have actual experience if you want to ask questions and I won't just let you work off of the back of others.

Just understand that your current sand already has a head start... it has bound up some phosphates should be acting as a buffer. It also likely has some bacterial populations that you may, or may not, get any use out of, but they are doing something. If you ever added any live rock, or real live sand (not from a bag), then the microfauna population boom is already underway.

Most likely, the best thing that you can do is to buy a box of live rock from the ocean to get some more biodiversity. If you don't have worms, pods, sponges (green, yellow, etc), then you are lacking and could use some real live rock.

 

[brandon429]

as you can see, per the examples what JDA is saying is false/ designed to insult only. Does not reflect five years of work, and I never get to see any replacement links from J, to show his ways being applied for my own pattern inspection.


Let's see if we can't get JDA to cool down a little- if we could get some work examples along with the fierceness that would be ideal

You dont have to attempt our method of control, no harm. We are going to get ten more tanks worked as usual this month alone, not short of practitioners to test patterns.


take time to read patterns, they're there


People's testimony logged isn't worthless there

they're happy. Imagine if all those reefs crashed, or had massive outbreaks afterwards, how their testimony would be different. Work links prevent someone's opinion from taking hold.

B

 

[brandon429]

don't believe a guy who never has done this

In the thread, my system which is 15 years old has been rip cleaned four times. (click, read outcomes)

This shouldnt be a flame situation, it should be a situation where we show prior work centered on the request.

We really need more than one work link here. OP selects which one he wants and we track it for outcome, pretty simple.



All of us are simply vying to change or alter reefing procedure... natural selection is at work. tanks benefitted by change will maintain that change by and large, work links can speak for themselves.

 

[MabuyaQ]

Current parameters
Sg 1.026
Temp 78
Alk 9.0 (I like to keep at 8.5 preferably)
Cal 430
Mag 1500 (cannot get this down, using Fritz)
NO3 5ppm
PO4 .05

Initially back in March I siphoned the sandbed thinking that would fix it but realized this was not tge correct thing to do and I stead fed the dinos by doing the water change.

I've tried Dr. Tims method twice and it works initially but comes back.

I've been keeping my NO3 at 5-10 ppm and my PO4 at .05 - .08.

I have done a few small water changes since March. I know this may not be the best to beat dinos but my tank needed a WC.

I am aware that UV slows down the dinos from reproducing and not elimates it. I am just thinking a UV sterilizer along with other methods and maintaining certain nutrient levels will not hurt in getting rid of dinos.

My nutrients are high enough in my system that I am seeing hair algae near where my dinos are on my sandbed as well as some turf/film or other algae on my overflow.

What would you recommend I do to help get rid of dinos? Im open to try any suggestions. Thanks.

This means you have completed step one. You need stable NO3 and PO4, this is also probably the reason why you only have a local problem with spots of dino and not a full sandbed. If you keep nutrients stable you can perform as many waterchanges as needed. The problem with waterchanges is that in general they don't contain NO3 or PO4 so don't add anything, but you may be removing something.

Step two is sandbed maintenance. No sandbed can go without some sort of maintenance, which basically means movement/turnover. Do you clean your sandbed manually with a sifon, do you rake it, do you have sandsleeping fish, do you have sandsifting animals (fish, snails, seacucumbers). Any and all of these help prevent any sort of local buildup that can create local problems.

I have a 10 year old white sandbed in a 100 gallon tank that is maintained by about a dozen nassarius snails (perfect for any tank) and 2 seacucumbers (would not advice these for a tank your size), and I also have two sandsleeping wrasses (they sleep at fixed spots so are only a local solution). The only problem with my sand, and only occasionally, is a small patch of cyano developing where detritus collects in a low flow area when the seacucumbers haven't cleaned for quite some time at that spot. All I have to do is dig out the sand dump it on one of the wrasse's sleeping spots, fill the hole and 24 hours later there is no more cyano for at least another year.

If you don't want to maintain your sandbed manually or biologically go bare bottom.

 

[Billldg]

Everyone, please let’s keep this thread on point and have a civilized discussion.

 

[nereefpat]

I'd rather deal with the dinos and keep my sticks vs potentially risking my sticks dying.

Are you sure those are dinos on the sand? Not cyanobacteria, or diatoms?

 

[brandon429]

if the pic #1 is pretty accurate reflection of the color hue, that's on the whiter side and to select for a little bit of extra sandbed loading absent a matched grazer is still very spot-on with patterns. If it were windex blue pic I wouldnt think that...there is a strong correlation between stronger white spectrum trending towards 10K resulting in more sandbed loading/matted communities. Again that is merely a statement of patterns noted, its not meant to start a revolt/easy tunings to try.

Take pics in that nice balance above, but run it windex blue in the interim by lowering white intensity and that can sometimes curb sandbed work alone. Combined with a deep clean, its a powerful preventative we show in outcomes logged.

Along with the clean up crews mentioned for sand above, have ones that eject waste from the bed vs pack it

starfish=slow pellet producers that add to sandbed loading. same with cucs

but paired with a busy fish, that diving wrasse or a diamond gby, might have a neat working set.

 

[92Miata]

Cleaning a sand bed and replacing a sandbed are different things - especially if that sand is aragonite.

Aragonite buffers phosphate.


If you clean a tank and rinse the sand - you'll get rid of all the crud and detritus - and its going to reduce phosphates/nitrates/other pollutants. Great. But you're not going to change the actual amount of phosphate in the aragonite itself.

If you replace the sand - your new sand will also absorb a bunch of phosphate.

If your tank is having algae issues this probably isn't a big issue (and may be a good thing) - but if you're adding sand to an already low phosphate barebottom tank - you're asking for issues from the corresponding phosphate drop.

 

[SMSREEF]

Have you identified which Dino you are dealing with under a microscope?

Do your Dino’s leave the sand at night?

 

[Brian W]

This means you have completed step one. You need stable NO3 and PO4, this is also probably the reason why you only have a local problem with spots of dino and not a full sandbed. If you keep nutrients stable you can perform as many waterchanges as needed. The problem with waterchanges is that in general they don't contain NO3 or PO4 so don't add anything, but you may be removing something.

Step two is sandbed maintenance. No sandbed can go without some sort of maintenance, which basically means movement/turnover. Do you clean your sandbed manually with a sifon, do you rake it, do you have sandsleeping fish, do you have sandsifting animals (fish, snails, seacucumbers). Any and all of these help prevent any sort of local buildup that can create local problems.

I have a 10 year old white sandbed in a 100 gallon tank that is maintained by about a dozen nassarius snails (perfect for any tank) and 2 seacucumbers (would not advice these for a tank your size), and I also have two sandsleeping wrasses (they sleep at fixed spots so are only a local solution). The only problem with my sand, and only occasionally, is a small patch of cyano developing where detritus collects in a low flow area when the seacucumbers haven't cleaned for quite some time at that spot. All I have to do is dig out the sand dump it on one of the wrasse's sleeping spots, fill the hole and 24 hours later there is no more cyano for at least another year.

If you don't want to maintain your sandbed manually or biologically go bare bottom.

I went a little over a year without touching tge sandbed. When I first realized I had dinos I siphoned the top coat of the sandbed taking out all visible dinos. After a couple more cleanings of the sandbed I read that I may be actually deeming the dinos during WC. Not sure if true or not. Last month I added a new CUC of 12 nassarius snails, 1 fighting Conch, 10 blue leg hermit crabs, 10 Astrea snails and 5 Indo Trochus snails. I wish I would of added the CUC several months ago...but it is what it is.