CHEMICLEAN WARNING

[DeniableArc]

I recently treated my 60g tank with the directed dose of chemiclean. I was on day 2 and I was preparing skimmer to catch skim rather then let it overflow like it was for the treatment. For me I can’t help but put my clean hands in the tank more then I should always have and never had a problem at least with myself. It was 9pm I emptied the collection cup full of chemiclean it was pulling out hands in tank and skimate on hands. About 10 pm I was rubbing my eyes and thinking geez my allergies are bad tonight I managed to fall asleep with rather sore eyes and thought nothing of it. 1am I woke up in agony! I’m a boilermaker/ steel maker and i had had my share of welding flashes this was just as bad if not worse! I could not open my eyes at all my wife drove me to the emergency room and told the doc what happened and he checked the chemiclean MSDS and took a ph reading from my eyeballs and it was off the charts so for the next 2 hours I had 6 brutally painful litres of saline injected under my eyelids till my eye ph was under 7.5. I have had some painful injuries, large third degree burns, compound fractures, dislocated joints and I can honestly tell you this was up there! So it is very wise to use gloves and wash hands after using chemicals in a reef tank of which I learned the hard way.

 

[MERKEY]

So sorry and glad you are ok.

Thank you for sharing for us to all learn!!

 

[fishguy242]

hi ,sorry to hear,thanks for the heads up!! i'll add same goes for all corals ,paly/zoas and acrylic weld,never touch eyes ;)

 

[Tamberav]

and to think we subject fish to this stuff...

seriously thats scary though... glad you are okay now.

 

[jccaclimber]

Chemiclean is erythromycin, roughly the same as Maracyn, and the stuff your doctor prescribes to you for strep.
While I don’t know the effects of getting it in your eyes, I do know there are all sorts of bacteria that live in skimmate, plus I know that palytoxin is very real.
You can draw a line from unhappy tank from an antibiotic to unhappy palys to palytoxin to your eyes, but I wouldn’t consider that to be the fault of the Chemiclean.
Not saying you aren’t going through something I’d just as soon never experience, but I think the warning may not be centered on the right issue.

 

[DeniableArc]

Chemiclean is erythromycin, roughly the same as Maracyn, and the stuff your doctor prescribes to you for strep.
While I don’t know the effects of getting it in your eyes, I do know there are all sorts of bacteria that live in skimmate, plus I know that palytoxin is very real.
You can draw a line from unhappy tank from an antibiotic to unhappy palys to palytoxin to your eyes, but I wouldn’t consider that to be the fault of the Chemiclean.
Not saying you aren’t going through something I’d just as soon never experience, but I think the warning may not be centered on the right issue.

I’m not sure what your argument is? I have trimmed al sorts of palys and zoas in my tank for 3 years never had a problem and I’m sure I have rubbed my eyes before. I’m not trying to say don’t use chemiclean, it works quite well. But it clearly has some chemicals in it that would confirm it is harmful if you get it in your eyes.

 

[jccaclimber]

Short version:
They make prescription eye drops out of the active ingredient in Chemiclean, so that isn’t your issue. I’d be slightly surprised if the nasty things on the SDS (not the active ingredient) both survive for 48 hours in our reef tanks without being broken down and get concentrated by skimmers. Perhaps RHF can chime in there.

Longer:
I’m making one assumption here, and that is that you dosed the Chemiclean to your tank some number of days ago, and have not touched it since. Thus the only path is from the tank water to the skimmer to you, not directly from the bottle to your eyes.

Through one of the local clubs I’m a member in I personally know a few people who have had palytoxin experiences that required medical attention. All of these people had been fragging their corals bare handed for years without issue before their palytoxin experience. Only one of them ended up with a crashed tank, or other major signs of disturbance beyond their medical issue. He was aware that something was off in his tank (it was crashing), had therefore taken care not to touch his face, and still needed a GP visit, optometrist visit, and at least two medications to stop the eye issues that ended up looking like a textbook palytoxin case compounded with an eye infection.
I’m good about eye protection, but poor about gloves. I’ve had years where I spend 500 hours with my hands in the reef tank, much of it handling coral. Perhaps once in that time I’ll get a short lived minor infection in a cut or cuticle, which some antibacterial bar soap resolves right away. Point being that doing something many times before without issue does not mean it wasn’t an issue this time.

Most of the nasty chemicals on the SDS I suspect are things that keep the erythromycin viable as a liquid while it sits on the shelf, or helps it dissolve in water better. I’ll need someone like RHF to chime in, but I’m guessing your tank processes those out in some manner, so they aren’t going to become super concentrated in your skimmate.
Consider the possible dose. I don’t know how much Chemiclean you dosed, but I’ll bet less than 100% of the active portion dosed ended up in the skimmer cup. Then dilute it by the extra volume of the skimmer, then take a tiny fraction of that and put it in a film on your hand, and a portion of that now ends up in your eyes. I don’t think it’s nearly enough to cause issues. I don’t know the concentration in the eye drops/creams that use it, but I’m guessing the total dose is more than the amount you could get via the path described above.

On the other hand, the odds of it being your lucky day to finally get a fish tank sourced eye infection seem comparatively possible. The feeling of an allergy attack is a known palytoxin symptom, and that is a chemical that does cause symptoms at the extremely low amounts possible by rubbing your eyes, breathing mist off of a skimmer, etc.

At best I think we could say maybe it was any of these three causes, but I don’t think we have a high degree of certainty that it was the Chemiclean in the skimmate.

All that said, arceye sucks, anything worse is just that, and I hope you are feeling better soon.

 

[GlassMunky]

I honestly don’t know if I can think of anything that was worse than when I had arch-eye / welders burn......

that **** is AGONY

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

There are probably a lot of chemicals we use in the hobby that will do this if you get them in your eyes. This is an important reminder to treat all chemicals and additives we use as "dangerous," because most of them probably are.

Hope everything works out and your eyes are okay.

 

[fishguy242]

guys/gals 1 worse than arc eye,sorry read all ,have to add 3x fragging zoas in last 5 yrs of 30,leaning over building clown rack w weld on in basement,pure stupidity ,woke blind, 3 hrs flushing did not see clear two days,not eye but open wound /scratch on wrist ,moving corals ,stung by bicolor hammer ,pain was ...swelling like a boxing glove marker on arm watching creep up forearm,ER time treated as allergy to bee sting ,lastly the eye ,bent over pick something up ,turned into long needle pinetree pierced open eye cornea and white 2 holes rt eye ER ,eye doctor,patch 2 days,clouded to opaque blind week,sun light/headlights over two weeks ,jeez here is a ramble..sad but true,be careful out there all:)

 

[DeniableArc]

Short version:
They make prescription eye drops out of the active ingredient in Chemiclean, so that isn’t your issue. I’d be slightly surprised if the nasty things on the SDS (not the active ingredient) both survive for 48 hours in our reef tanks without being broken down and get concentrated by skimmers. Perhaps RHF can chime in there.

Longer:
I’m making one assumption here, and that is that you dosed the Chemiclean to your tank some number of days ago, and have not touched it since. Thus the only path is from the tank water to the skimmer to you, not directly from the bottle to your eyes.

Through one of the local clubs I’m a member in I personally know a few people who have had palytoxin experiences that required medical attention. All of these people had been fragging their corals bare handed for years without issue before their palytoxin experience. Only one of them ended up with a crashed tank, or other major signs of disturbance beyond their medical issue. He was aware that something was off in his tank (it was crashing), had therefore taken care not to touch his face, and still needed a GP visit, optometrist visit, and at least two medications to stop the eye issues that ended up looking like a textbook palytoxin case compounded with an eye infection.
I’m good about eye protection, but poor about gloves. I’ve had years where I spend 500 hours with my hands in the reef tank, much of it handling coral. Perhaps once in that time I’ll get a short lived minor infection in a cut or cuticle, which some antibacterial bar soap resolves right away. Point being that doing something many times before without issue does not mean it wasn’t an issue this time.

Most of the nasty chemicals on the SDS I suspect are things that keep the erythromycin viable as a liquid while it sits on the shelf, or helps it dissolve in water better. I’ll need someone like RHF to chime in, but I’m guessing your tank processes those out in some manner, so they aren’t going to become super concentrated in your skimmate.
Consider the possible dose. I don’t know how much Chemiclean you dosed, but I’ll bet less than 100% of the active portion dosed ended up in the skimmer cup. Then dilute it by the extra volume of the skimmer, then take a tiny fraction of that and put it in a film on your hand, and a portion of that now ends up in your eyes. I don’t think it’s nearly enough to cause issues. I don’t know the concentration in the eye drops/creams that use it, but I’m guessing the total dose is more than the amount you could get via the path described above.

On the other hand, the odds of it being your lucky day to finally get a fish tank sourced eye infection seem comparatively possible. The feeling of an allergy attack is a known palytoxin symptom, and that is a chemical that does cause symptoms at the extremely low amounts possible by rubbing your eyes, breathing mist off of a skimmer, etc.

At best I think we could say maybe it was any of these three causes, but I don’t think we have a high degree of certainty that it was the Chemiclean in the skimmate.

All that said, arceye sucks, anything worse is just that, and I hope you are feeling better soon.

You seem educated, I’m just reporting my experience from what happened up to my injury and what the ophthalmologist said after reading the SDS. He explained from what I remember it’s a alkaline burn from what ingredient I’m not sure of but told me it’s a bleach type burn. When I arrived I had pain killer drops and then took a ph reading of my eyeball surface using a coloured paper strip and it was 9+ and it took 2 hours of flushing with saline and every 20 min taking another reading until it was under 7.5. After this he looked in my eyes with a machine and some solution in my eyes and told my there was a few spots or damaged areas where due to the chemicals being in my eye for hours before being rinsed out and the fact I rubbed my eyes thinking it was hay fever. I’m curious of your reply or perhaps someone whith chemical and eye knowledge.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm sorry to hear what happened!

Let's back up and approach this with reason. The opthamologist idea about the chemiclean pH being an issue is NOT CORRECT. Even if the pH of the additive is high (9 is not high, my tap water is higher than that), the solution in the skimmer WILL NOT BE HIGH in pH. It is massively diluted in the tank. People add all sorts of additives at far, far higher doses that will have a far higher pH raising effect, such as sodium carbonate alkalinity additives, limewater/kalkwasser, etc.

Chemiclean is the antibiotic erythromycin. Are you allergic to erythromycin?

It kills bacteria. Some of those bacteria it killed may release toxins. Some toxins may be accumulated in a skimmer. Maybe the toxins were an issue.

 

[Waynerock]

HEY! Don’t put that stuff in your eyes

 

[vetteguy53081]

Glad youre ok. We have to treat chemicals as CHEMICALS and assume there are risks. Just an open cut is all it takes for infection or a burning sensation that will have you talking to yourself
Always wear gloves unless you’re feeding or adding water.

 

[RVA REEF]

this doesnt sound like a reaction to chemiclean, more like palytoxin poisoning

 

[DeniableArc]

I'm sorry to hear what happened!

Let's back up and approach this with reason. The opthamologist idea about the chemiclean pH being an issue is NOT CORRECT. Even if the pH of the additive is high (9 is not high, my tap water is higher than that), the solution in the skimmer WILL NOT BE HIGH in pH. It is massively diluted in the tank. People add all sorts of additives at far, far higher doses that will have a far higher pH raising effect, such as sodium carbonate alkalinity additives, limewater/kalkwasser, etc.

Chemiclean is the antibiotic erythromycin. Are you allergic to erythromycin?

It kills bacteria. Some of those bacteria it killed may release toxins. Some toxins may be accumulated in a skimmer. Maybe the toxins were an issue.

Thanks for the reply. Given the doctors went from the information I gave them witch was chemiclean why was there so much importance with flushing my eye and taking 5+ ph samples of my eyes? Was this treated the same as a general negative chemical reaction? I have heard of Palythoa toxin before but about 2years into the hobby and by then I have been cutting/ fragging zoas inside and outside the water and even destroying army of green evasive Palythoa with tweezers every month or two for a year! I’m not trying to make a mountain out o a mole hill but if it was not chemiclean have I just been lucky and dogged a bullet?

 

[01xp]

Glad youre ok. We have to treat chemicals as CHEMICALS and assume there are risks. Just an open cut is all it takes for infection or a burning sensation that will have you talking to yourself
Always wear gloves unless you’re feeding or adding water.

I agree treat all chemicals as if they're dangerous

 

[RVA REEF]

did you rub your eyes after destroying the army?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the reply. Given the doctors went from the information I gave them witch was chemiclean why was there so much importance with flushing my eye and taking 5+ ph samples of my eyes? Was this treated the same as a general negative chemical reaction? I have heard of Palythoa toxin before but about 2years into the hobby and by then I have been cutting/ fragging zoas inside and outside the water and even destroying army of green evasive Palythoa with tweezers every month or two for a year! I’m not trying to make a mountain out o a mole hill but if it was not chemiclean have I just been lucky and dogged a bullet?

I doubt the opthamologist knows anything about a reef tank or what might happen to a chemical before it gets to a skimmer, or even what a skimmer is or does.

Try measuring the pH of your skimmate. it will not be 9+, no matter how much chemiclean you add to your aquarium.

Cyanobacteria toxin are a serious issue and are very different from palytoxin. You were killing cyanobacteria, presumably, and those toxins are a concern.

Water-related diseases

Cyanobacteria or blue-green algae occur worldwide especially in calm, nutrient-rich waters.

www.who.int

" Swimmers in water containing cyanobacterial toxins may suffer allergic reactions, such as asthma, eye irritation, rashes, and blisters around the mouth and nose. "

I don't claim to be an eye doctor or to have any knowledge in the area aside from what I can read online, but it is not clear to me why the measured pH was high (assuming it was not an error), but in general, flushing with a buffered solution is certainly the recommended treatment.

 

[StlSalt]

I was cleaning some dried Palys off some old rock I had set aside to clean a year ago. I'm no scientist but I figured the payl toxin was organic and probably not very toxic after a year. I was still careful but I touched my eye and started feeling bad almost immediately. For the next 4 hours I had really bad chills and muscle spasms. At first I thought it was a really bad Flu but since it was over in 4 hours I suspected not. I looked up Payl toxin and it affects the sodium pumps in your cells. Thus the muscle spasms and chills. It's for real, please be careful.

Palytoxin targets the sodium-potassium pump protein by locking it into a position where it allows passive transport of both sodium and potassium ions, thereby destroying the ion gradient that is essential for life.[6] Because palytoxin can affect every type of cell in the body, the symptoms can be very different for the various routes of exposure.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palytoxin#cite_note-deeds-2