Chemistry of Macro

[Subsea]

I am a marine engineer and a reef hobbiest since 1971. I have been fascinated with using decorative and utilitarian macro algae (seaweed) in my display tanks and refugiums. One year ago, I removed macro from 25 year old mud/macro refugium and seeded with cryptic sponges. During this same period, I dosed vinegar to grow bacteria to feed the microbial loop. As in many things, balance is the key. When you can’t easily measure your results, bioindicators become test results. I now have flame scallops & sea apple in display and three differrent NPS in cryptic refugium:Chilli Coral and two deep water gorgonions.

In reading Steve Tyree ebooks on cryptic zone filtration, I will discribe a generalization that helps me to see the big picture. I hope my chmistry terminology is correct. Seaweeds favorite source of carbon comes from carbon dioxide solubility in water and if given everything it needs its composition will seek a steady state number of 560:30:1 of carbon:nitrogenhosphate. Depending on macro the N ratio can easily vary between 80:1 & 10:1.

Because macro algae is a sponge, it can absorb trace minerals and store excess minerals to be used during times of lean. I first read this in an article written by @Randy Holmes-Farley on iron dosing in reef tanks. When dosing iron into Gracilaria Hayi tumble culture, dark red color change happened overnight with extra growth that was like flotation bladders along main stem developing during the next seven days. Iron storage bladders receded over the next few weeks.

My question has to do with macro algae by products of DOC and the ability of cryptic sponges to convert DOC into DIC and Marine Snow, both of which are food for corals. I was lead to believe that all marine photosynthetic organisms contribute DOC to water column. As I understand DOC, the list of differrent DOC compounds is extensive. When Ken Felderman research on carbon dosing reef tanks says GAC removes as much as 65% of DOC while protein skimming removes at best 30% of DOC, I have some unanswered questions about DOC. As I understand things, bacteria gets its carbon from DOC. I am told that the DOC from corals are high in protein and lipids, while the DOC of macro is high in carbohydrates. Do these differrent DOC compounds produce differrent types of bacteria?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Most bacteria get energy by metabolizing organic carbon they find in the environment. They also use it as a source of carbon to build their organic tissues, but may also use inorganic carbon for that purpose.

With the exception of certain unusual bacteria species that do not require organic carbon (say, photosynthetic bacteria such as cyanobacteria or chemolithotrophs such as the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrate or sulfur in denitrators into sulfate), most bacteria need organic carbon.

There is an almost infinite number of possible organic molecules. All organisms can metabolize some of these and not others. Bacteria can metabolize a large fraction of those present in the water of a reef tank, but not all.

So now we come to a nitty gritty but very simple question on which there is no clear answer at the moment.

If I dose vinegar (acetic acid) to a reef tank, there will be some species of bacteria that thrive on it. Some may take it up, but are not very efficient at doing so. Some may not use it at all. IMO, vinegar is an excellent choice for dosing because I think it may be the single most widely used organic that we would add to a reef tank, or at least is among the very top candidates. Even corals and higher organisms take it up.

But over time, the bacteria that thrive the best on it may begin to dominate the available surfaces in a reef tank. Is that 1 species or strain of a species? 2? 10? 100? 10,000? Not sure.

Now if I switch to dosing vodka (ethanol) instead. Same thing happens, but are those dominating species (1 or 2 or 1000 strains/species) the same types, totally different types, or a mix of some that were the same and some that are different.

Because of certain effects we observe (e.g., a bacterial overgrowth driven by one type of organic dosing can often be reduced or eliminated by switching to a different organic), I tend to believe there are at least some significant differences in the strains of bacteria that predominate with different types or mixtures of organics being dosed.

But the evidence goes no further than what I've stated above as an observation.

So to the actual question, which relates to whether organics released by marcroalgae and corals (there will be large and overlapping numbers of organic molecules from each), i would tend to think they may drive the growth of somewhat different and overlapping sets of bacterial species and strains.

BUT, I'm not sure either source is the primary drive of bacterial growth on dissolved organics even if organic carbon is not intentionally added (e.g., vinegar, vodka, etc.) Foods fed to the tank may be the ultimate primary source, and releases from photosynthetic organisms may just be a minor modifier of that complex mixture.

 

[Subsea]

Thank you for bringing clarity to a somewhat confusing subject that is very complex in nature.

In recent conversation with European reefers, I went from dosing amino acids for enhanced coral growth to dosing vinegar to grow bacteria that produce amino acids from animal & plant protein. Considering that I feed heavy every day: flake, frozen and live shellfish. In tank production of live food is well established with a resident Mandarin that is fat & sassy from in tank grazing. For certain, the things that I am doing is growing flame scallops, Sea Apples, and NPS corals with very little effort on my part. While I can’t document scientifically which bacteria are thriving, I know they are feeding my reef tank. I have decided to discontinue dosing organic carbon and focus on a calcium reactor as a source of bicarbonate and bring organic carbon in with food. I will continue dosing iron, iodine and ammonia.

In your observations, does dry flake food have a balanced N ratio of 30:1.

What is the nitrogen to phosphorus ratio in bacteria?



https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2...m-on-top-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/wet-salty-for-christmas-2017.428100/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you for bringing clarity to a somewhat confusing subject that is very complex in nature.

In recent conversation with European reefers, I went from dosing amino acids for enhanced coral growth to dosing vinegar to grow bacteria that produce amino acids from animal & plant protein. Considering that I feed heavy every day: flake, frozen and live shellfish. In tank production of live food is well established with a resident Mandarin that is fat & sassy from in tank grazing. For certain, the things that I am doing is growing flame scallops, Sea Apples, and NPS corals with very little effort on my part. While I can’t document scientifically which bacteria are thriving, I know they are feeding my reef tank. I have decided to discontinue dosing organic carbon and focus on a calcium reactor as a source of bicarbonate and bring organic carbon in with food. I will continue dosing iron, iodine and ammonia.

In your observations, does dry flake food have a balanced N ratio of 30:1.

What is the nitrogen to phosphorus ratio in bacteria?



https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2...m-on-top-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/wet-salty-for-christmas-2017.428100/

To have a balance N, you might avoid foods that contain "bone meal" or anything that sounds like fish bones because that has a lot of phosphate and not much nitrogen.

The N for bacteria probably varies a bit as it does for algae, but I expect it is in the same general ballpark since organisms have similar basic biology of lipids, proteins, carbohydrates, etc.

 

[Dan_P]

Now here is a question that could be clarified a bit with genomics. Knowing how the populations shifts with carbon source would be personally satisfying to see. Following how the population balance varies with age of the aquarium would be better than Game of Thrones. I suspect that the cost of even one time point would make a Triton Test look cheap.

I would rather have the genetics of my tank tested than my own DNA. Anyone out there thinking of testing tank water genomics as a business?

 

[Subsea]

Now here is a question that could be clarified a bit with genomics. Knowing how the populations shifts with carbon source would be personally satisfying to see. Following how the population balance varies with age of the aquarium would be better than Game of Thrones. I suspect that the cost of even one time point would make a Triton Test look cheap.

I would rather have the genetics of my tank tested than my own DNA. Anyone out there thinking of testing tank water genomics as a business?

Dan,
You stretch my vocabulary, that is a good thing. This is the second time I had to google your post.

geonomics in British
(ˌdʒiːəʊˈnɒmɪks)
noun
economics
[a doctrine holding that humans own what is created by them, but that those things found in nature, such as land, belong to no one person but instead belong equally to all humankind
Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Pu ]

I don’t think that I got the correct meaning with above link. What are your thoughts on geonomics?

While I do not have a detailed journal of my 25 year old system, I do have much detail of the last 12 months of cryptic refugium and a shift in populations. Granted, I brought in Apples, scallops, sponges, Chilli Coral and deep water gorgonions.

 

[Subsea]

To have a balance N, you might avoid foods that contain "bone meal" or anything that sounds like fish bones because that has a lot of phosphate and not much nitrogen.

The N for bacteria probably varies a bit as it does for algae, but I expect it is in the same general ballpark since organisms have similar basic biology of lipids, proteins, carbohydrates, etc.

Randy,
I so much enjoy your wisdom & knowledge. Thank you for sharing that. You truely are a noble person. I thank you for your contribution to this hobby. Glad that you still have the time to share.

 

[Subsea]

With respect to detail, I am operating 1000G of outside mariculture to sell as live food for marine carnivores and herbivores. Initially, I had 10K gallons in greenhouse to grow people editable Red Ogo but high sulfur content of ground water effected taste of Ogo decreasing it’s food value marketability. Due to high energy cost to cool & heat, I choose to grow hardy live food: mollies, ghost shrimp, Sheepshead minnows, amphipods, copepods and in the macro world: Gracilaria Hayi, Bortacladia, Ulva and Enteromorphy .

https://www.marineplantbook.com/marinebookenteromorpha.htm

I am presently operating with 150G Rubbermade tanks buried in the ground. I brought system thru last winter with little input from resistive heaters. The coldest water temperature was 42 degrees which did kill off some urchins and a few fourth generation mollies. Ground water at 1000 feet is 78 degree water which is a heat source in winter. System flourished during the summer heat with maximum temperature at 84 degrees. During summer heat, evaporation rate sometimes reached 50 Gallon per Day. Large amphipods and numerous copepods are mixed in with differrent red macro. Ulva & it’s cousin Enteromorphy are beginning to take a foothold and it will be my focus to cultivate because of its established marketability.

Because I am a zero discharge facility, I wish to calculate what I should dose to make up for minerals absorbed by macro as it grew. I also wish to make a fertilizer cocktail from miracle grow using equal nitrogen to phosphate ratio and raise the ratio to 30:1 of N using household ammonia.

When I first started as a seaweed farmer, it was to produce Red Ogo as a human food. To that end, I sent Ogo off to Ward Labs to get dry analysis so that I could certify what was in the seaweed:

Dry analysis of Gracilaria Parvispora, Red Ogo:
N @ 2.59%
P @0.082%
K @13.54%
Ca @0.555
Mg @1.163
S @4.81
Zn @139 ppm
Fe @107 ppm
Mn @20 ppm
Cu @7 ppm

Trinity Aquifier groundwater at 950’
pH at 7.8
TDS at 888 ppm
Na at 55 ppm
K at 14 ppm
Ca at 130 ppm
Mg at 102 ppm
Total CaCO3 hardness at 750 ppm
NO3 < 0.1 ppm
SO4 at 189 ppm
Cl at 34 ppm
CO3 < 1 ppm
HCO3 at 346 ppm
Total alkalinity, CaCO3 at 283 ppm
B at 0.33 ppm
Total Nitrogen at 2 ppm
Ortho Phosphate < 0.01 ppm
Total Phosphate < 0.01 ppm
Total Iron at 0.02 ppm
Mn < 0.01 ppm
NO2 < 0.01 ppm

< not detected below detection limit.

 

[Dan_P]

Dan,
You stretch my vocabulary, that is a good thing. This is the second time I had to google your post.

geonomics in British
(ˌdʒiːəʊˈnɒmɪks)
noun
economics
[a doctrine holding that humans own what is created by them, but that those things found in nature, such as land, belong to no one person but instead belong equally to all humankind
Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Pu ]

I don’t think that I got the correct meaning with above link. What are your thoughts on geonomics

I was thinking that if we could just sample our tank water and have someone perform a genetic analysis on all the DNA floating around, we would have a handle on the genus or class of bacteria we have. We might better understand how changes we make to our systems impact the population of bacteria. What does carbon dosing do to bacteria diversity? How does the population of bacteria differ between bare and sand bottom aquaria? Do probiotics make a big difference? Are there potential fish, coral and human disease causing bacteria present? Do large water changes change bacteria diversity.

Maybe a DNA kit for us is just around the corner?

 

[Subsea]

As a “Laissez Faire” reefkeeper, I am not likely to get a dna porfolio of my display tank. However, it is interesting and I find it fascinating to realize how complex & interconnected everything is.. You would think that after 48 years in the hobby, I would lose enthusiasm. Just the opposite is the case. With so much information being made available with new technology, I find beauty in such dynamic interaction between bacteria, algae and sponges.

 

[Dan_P]

As a “Laissez Faire” reefkeeper, I am not likely to get a dna porfolio of my display tank. However, it is interesting and I find it fascinating to realize how complex & interconnected everything is.. You would think that after 48 years in the hobby, I would lose enthusiasm. Just the opposite is the case. With so much information being made available with new technology, I find beauty in such dynamic interaction between bacteria, algae and sponges.

I know exactly what you mean and go one step further to say that saltwater aquaria are fascinating ecosystems at any length scale you examine. You could spend a life time observing the molecular, microscopic and macroscopic levels.

 

[Subsea]

I know exactly what you mean and go one step further to say that saltwater aquaria are fascinating ecosystems at any length scale you examine. You could spend a life time observing the molecular, microscopic and macroscopic levels.

Dan,
Of recent, there are many hobby scientist to share and grow the information & knowledge base. It is an enjoyable resource to chat about these complex things. With respect to the macroscopic and the microscopic, @Paul B had it right about bacteria 40 years ago. Bacteria feed the tank thru the microbial loop, but increasing evidence shows importance of bacteria in auto immune system health.

Check out “quorum sensing”. Many years ago, @Randy Holmes-Farley article on phosphate in reef tanks discribes a process in which cynobacteria produces chemistry to assimilate inorganic phosphate into organic biomass.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_sensing
Quorum sensing

In biology, quorum sensing is the ability to detect and to respond to cell population density by gene regulation. As one example, quorum sensing (QS) enables bacteria to restrict the expression of specific genes to the high cell densities at which the resulting phenotypes will be most beneficial. Many species of bacteria use quorum sensing to coordinate gene expression according to the density of their local population. In similar fashion, some social insects use quorum sensing to determine where to nest.

In addition to its function in biological systems, quorum sensing has several useful applications for computing and robotics. In general, quorum sensing can function as a decision-making process in any decentralized system in which the components have: (a) a means of assessing the number of other components they interact with and (b) a standard response once a threshold number of components is detected.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Now here is a question that could be clarified a bit with genomics. Knowing how the populations shifts with carbon source would be personally satisfying to see. Following how the population balance varies with age of the aquarium would be better than Game of Thrones. I suspect that the cost of even one time point would make a Triton Test look cheap.

I would rather have the genetics of my tank tested than my own DNA. Anyone out there thinking of testing tank water genomics as a business?

I expect the number of different suspended organisms in the water is very high, especially if you include bacteria and viruses.

 

[Dan_P]

I expect the number of different suspended organisms in the water is very high, especially if you include bacteria and viruses.

Ultimately, I want to ensure the health of my fish and bio filter.

I would start out with discovering the classes (I “think” that’s the right level) of bacteria that exist in aquarium water. Answering simple questions would be entertaining, maybe useful. Are there human pathogens? How do large water changes impact diversity? How does carbon dosing impact diversity? How does the population diversity trend with time, type of food, season?

I have a strong interest in cyanobacteria. How diverse is the population? Are there telltale signs like a shift in diversity leading to a bloom?

And I would be particularly happy to observe telltale signs of certain metabolic activities, for example, ammonia oxidation, nitrate uptake, nitrate reduction over time.

Hardly a focused research program yet