Clarity on Tropic Marin Part C

[Doctorgori]

Hey, my first post Be gentle...
Tropic Marin Part C.....I couldn't find much except what it says on the box " sodium chloride free salt"
(besides a mention on a BRS vid saying just that)
Pardon my chemistry skills but could you make AFSW if you added in Sodium Chloride?

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Hey, my first post Be gentle...
Tropic Marin Part C.....I couldn't find much except what it says on the box " sodium chloride free salt"
(besides a mention on a BRS vid saying just that)
Pardon my chemistry skills but could you make AFSW if you added in Sodium Chloride?

It's intended to be used as part of the three-part "original balling" products they make. Specifically, adding sodium carbonate/bicarbonate and calcium chloride over time will increase the specific gravity of the tank water because of the non-consumed parts of these ionic compounds (sodium and chloride). When the specific gravity of the aquarium is re-adjusted, the ratio of chlorides to sulfates in the water is higher than in seawater, and over time and continued use (without water changes), this ratio will be come more skewed to chlorides.

The "part C" of the Tropic Marin product family is designed to correct this by only containing sulfate salts (presumably, largely magnesium sulfate). I believe it also contains trace elements as well.

Regardless, and in my opinion, this sort of supplementation isn't warranted as long as regular water changes are carried out.

 

[Doctorgori]

Regardless, and in my opinion, this sort of supplementation isn't warranted as long as regular water changes are carried out.

Thanks for the reply...
Yup and exactly... it’s a “story problem”.. I mean for 60 bucks worth of salt how much of Partc , trace et is already in a bucket of IO anyway for perhaps cheaper ... also thinking about some cheapo alternatives for making a cheap AFSW alternative vs using old tank water or IO for phyto/ brine shrimp ...

minus trace, could part c + Sodium chloride be used for less demanding culture uses?

 

[Lou Ekus]

Sorry that I am only seeing this now.

Water changes will correct only a portion of the ionic imbalance created by the parts A and B. For instance, if you do a 15% water change, every 2 weeks, you will correct 15% of the imbalance on that day, every two weeks. This is not enough of a correction in my opinion.

The Balling Part C corrects all of that imbalance on a daily basis.

As far as what would be needed to be added to the Tropic Marin Balling Part C to make complete sea salt? You would have to add the appropriate amount of NaCl, along with the proper amounts of calcium and carbonates. None of those are in the Part C. Part C does contain Mg and all 70 trace elements found in natural sea water.

 

[Doctorgori]

Sorry that I am only seeing this now.

Water changes will correct only a portion of the ionic imbalance created by the parts A and B. For instance, if you do a 15% water change, every 2 weeks, you will correct 15% of the imbalance on that day, every two weeks. This is not enough of a correction in my opinion.

The Balling Part C corrects all of that imbalance on a daily basis.

As far as what would be needed to be added to the Tropic Marin Balling Part C to make complete sea salt? You would have to add the appropriate amount of NaCl, along with the proper amounts of calcium and carbonates. None of those are in the Part C. Part C does contain Mg and all 70 trace elements found in natural sea water.

Yeah I had dreams of cheap BRS salt ( they don’t know yet that’s their next thing) lol ...I can picture the white bucket already with that red sock looking polyp thing. Lol ...
I go through tons of salt and if I can mix part c with NACLl and get a cheap substitute ( better than rock salt) for phyto and bbs I’ll be happy

 

[Lou Ekus]

Yeah I had dreams of cheap BRS salt ( they don’t know yet that’s their next thing) lol ...I can picture the white bucket already with that red sock looking polyp thing. Lol ...
I go through tons of salt and if I can mix part c with NACLl and get a cheap substitute ( better than rock salt) for phyto and bbs I’ll be happy

Don't forget the Ca and alkalinity components, in addition to the NaCl, if you are trying to make complete sea salt.

 

[Doctorgori]

Don't forget the Ca and alkalinity components, in addition to the NaCl, if you are trying to make complete sea salt.

So :"theoretically" speaking could someone approximate "good enuff" AFSW from Part C, some Table Salt,and some sorta alk/ca additives ....
if so, any clue what the mix would be?
Not lazy per se but unfortunately me and Jethro both graduated from the 6th grade at the same time :p

 

[burningbaal]

As far as what would be needed to be added to the Tropic Marin Balling Part C to make complete sea salt? You would have to add the appropriate amount of NaCl, along with the proper amounts of calcium and carbonates. None of those are in the Part C. Part C does contain Mg and all 70 trace elements found in natural sea water.

(emphasis mine)

@Lou Ekus A follow on here. would you be comfortable saying that Part C + (bi)carbonate, Ca, Na, and Cl, all in perfect ratio, would make a salt mix essentially equivalent to a tropic marin salt mix? I have no intention of making this kind of headache for myself, but I'm trying to get a good handle on the chemistry here (I do have a background in microbiology and minor in chemistry, so hopefully I can keep up). My main thinking is to make sure part C is truly a balance of the rest of a normal/healthy salt mix.

Maybe I can put the question another way:
If I took an empty/sterile container of 35ppt RODI water and tropic marin salt mix, dosed Parts A, B, C, and corrected for the increase in salinity. If I then take an ICP (and anion) analysis of the resultant water: would this experimental water differ from freshly mixed tropic marin salt mix?
I realize there is more than one tropic marin salt, so this wouldn't be exactly true for all varieties, but hopefully the thrust of the question is clear enough.

Additionally: Are you aware of much research regarding the consumption rate of the trace elements? How confident is the biology that the rate of consumption matches the relative concentrations?

 

[burningbaal]

or, put a third way: if you carefully mixed equal volumes parts A, B, C (consistent with the dosing instructions) with a sufficient quanity of RODI, would this make a solution that matches a complete salt mix?

 

[LadyTang2]

(emphasis mine)

@Lou Ekus A follow on here. would you be comfortable saying that Part C + (bi)carbonate, Ca, Na, and Cl, all in perfect ratio, would make a salt mix essentially equivalent to a tropic marin salt mix? I have no intention of making this kind of headache for myself, but I'm trying to get a good handle on the chemistry here (I do have a background in microbiology and minor in chemistry, so hopefully I can keep up). My main thinking is to make sure part C is truly a balance of the rest of a normal/healthy salt mix.

Maybe I can put the question another way:
If I took an empty/sterile container of 35ppt RODI water and tropic marin salt mix, dosed Parts A, B, C, and corrected for the increase in salinity. If I then take an ICP (and anion) analysis of the resultant water: would this experimental water differ from freshly mixed tropic marin salt mix?
I realize there is more than one tropic marin salt, so this wouldn't be exactly true for all varieties, but hopefully the thrust of the question is clear enough.

Additionally: Are you aware of much research regarding the consumption rate of the trace elements? How confident is the biology that the rate of consumption matches the relative concentrations?

Yes if you added the Na, Cl, bicarb/carb, and ca in perfect ratio that would make a good salt. I think you'd have to add the Ca and alk together, like basically just turning up the calcium reactor. If you just went up on the carx, added the nacl, and the part C, and were super careful/thoughtful about doing it that might work although the carx would lower ph. I'd say unless you're rather daring and willing to take the risk of doing it wrong you should wait for a sale and BUY A TON OF TM SALT, I like it :cool:

 

[burningbaal]

Yes if you added the Na, Cl, bicarb/carb, and ca in perfect ratio that would make a good salt. I think you'd have to add the Ca and alk together, like basically just turning up the calcium reactor. If you just went up on the carx, added the nacl, and the part C, and were super careful/thoughtful about doing it that might work although the carx would lower ph. I'd say unless you're rather daring and willing to take the risk of doing it wrong you should wait for a sale and BUY A TON OF TM SALT, I like it :cool:

I don't plan to actually stop buying the salt, I'm just trying to get a good grip on the contents of this A/B/C dosing additives.
Also, my understanding is contrary to what you said... my understanding is that part A has Cl and part B has Na, so in theory, A+B+C+RODI should make a complete saltwater...right?

 

[Silent]

Isnt that exactly how the new ESV salt is. You mix the parts individually.

 

[burningbaal]

Isnt that exactly how the new ESV salt is. You mix the parts individually.

sure, but the question isn't about the ESV salt. The question is about the composition of the A/B/C TM balling method mixes.

 

[LadyTang2]

I don't plan to actually stop buying the salt, I'm just trying to get a good grip on the contents of this A/B/C dosing additives.
Also, my understanding is contrary to what you said... my understanding is that part A has Cl and part B has Na, so in theory, A+B+C+RODI should make a complete saltwater...right?

Oh I thought we were discussing just the part c, sorry. I think you would need to add more nacl to the combo you mentioned.

 

[burningbaal]

Oh I thought we were discussing just the part c, sorry. I think you would need to add more nacl to the combo you mentioned.

Ah...that might be true...I guess I look forward to @Lou Ekus weighing in. I'm really just wanting to make sure I've got a good understanding of these reagents...I don't like using things I don't understand

 

[Silent]

with a sufficient quanity of RODI, would this make a solution that matches a complete salt mix?

I was replying to your question. Part A/B/C is what ESV is doing now with their new salt, adding the components separately to make a complete salt mix.

 

[burningbaal]

I was replying to your question.

Sorry, I saw you discussing the ESV salt mix and maybe misunderstood...do you have specific knowledge for the TM 'original balling' A/B/C additives?

 

[Silent]

Thanks to this video I am going to start adding part C to my dosing. Lou Ekus breaks it down very well.

 

[burningbaal]

yep, I saw the video, it's what made me start considering this, and it's why I found a thread where Lou contributed so I could get a direct answer about these. It's not clear to me if these additives combined make an ESV-style salt mix or if it's a skewed mix that maybe contains extra Ca, CO3, Mg, Sr, K, etc since we expect corals are taking up more of those than Na, Cl. The video does say the Balling reagents are intended to keep things in balance, but I'm not sure what that means...'balance' can mean a few different things.
I'm hoping to get a direct answer from someone who has specific knowledge of the composition of these specific additives.

 

[Silent]

I thought I remember him saying the part C is everything except alk and cal (the 2 part of A/B). A skewed mix seems like that would go against Balling concepts.