Clean Macroalgae Option

[Subsea]

I grasp the best internet response is “do it and let us know” but that’s why I’m asking if another has done it. We all know we can test it ourselves but perhaps at the moment not practical and why I ask for others who might have. That’s the response I’m seeking.

I find scientific articles more helpful than hobby websites with their conflicting opinions.

Copper pollution exacerbates the effects of ocean acidification and warming on kelp microscopic early life stages

Ocean warming (OW), ocean acidification (OA) and their interaction with local drivers, e.g., copper pollution, may negatively affect macroalgae and their microscopic life stages. We evaluated meiospore development of the kelps Macrocystis pyrifera and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Copper pollution exacerbates the effects of ocean acidification and warming on kelp microscopic early life stages​

Discussion​

Our results reveal that local anthropogenic drivers such as copper pollution have a greater impact on kelp meiospore survival and ontogenic development than global climate drivers such as OW and OA. While the independent effects of OW and OA on different early life history stage processes (e.g., meiospore germination and gametophyte growth) are mostly insignificant, the effect of copper is negative and magnified through the different developmental stages. For example, in our experiments, copper exposure (Cu-EC50) had only a moderate negative effect (5–18% reduction) on meiospore germination for all OW treatment and the ambient temperature/OA treatment and no effect for the ambient pH/temperature treatment. However, the subsequent growth of germlings was reduced by 43–68%, and sexual differentiation was inhibited regardless of seawater temperature and pH. The different sensitivities of early life history stage processes, not only to copper exposure, but also to other environmental drivers, are related to the fact that meiospore germination is an autogenous process supported by cellular lipid reserves38–40 while gametophyte growth and subsequent life-history processes are dependent on the photosynthesis and factors affecting this process40

 

[GARRIGA]

I find scientific articles more helpful than hobby websites with conflicting opinions.

Copper pollution exacerbates the effects of ocean acidification and warming on kelp microscopic early life stages

Ocean warming (OW), ocean acidification (OA) and their interaction with local drivers, e.g., copper pollution, may negatively affect macroalgae and their microscopic life stages. We evaluated meiospore development of the kelps Macrocystis pyrifera and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Copper pollution exacerbates the effects of ocean acidification and warming on kelp microscopic early life stages​

That’s more science than my brain can understand and I’m not trying to polute my water and just seeing if there’s a level of copper that would be detrimental to certain pests yet still safe with macroalgae.

Didn’t see mention of what are safe levels. Knowing plants do take up copper and copper present in seawater then there must be a tolerance (not polluted levels as per this article) that the macroalgae would survive yet still detrimental to pests such as worms or aiptasia, for example.

 

[Subsea]

That’s more science than my brain can understand and I’m not trying to polute my water and just seeing if there’s a level of copper that would be detrimental to certain pests yet still safe with macroalgae.

Didn’t see mention of what are safe levels. Knowing plants do take up copper and copper present in seawater then there must be a tolerance (not polluted levels as per this article) that the macroalgae would survive yet still detrimental to pests such as worms or aiptasia, for example.

The article clearly stated that at low concentrations, copper in seawater inhibited seaweed growth by up to 46%.

Does that support what you want to know?

[But why leave it out unless it will harm the Macroalgae? Post #5]

[At the nominal copper concentrations corresponding to the Cu-EC50 for M. pyrifera(2.36 µM Cu) and U. pinnatifida (3.62 µM Cu), CuT concentrations measured in the fresh media were 2.51 and to 3.84 µM CuT, respectively (Table 1).]

 

[GARRIGA]

The article clearly stated that at low concentrations, copper in seawater inhibited seaweed growth by 46%. Does that support what you want to know?

[At the nominal copper concentrations corresponding to the Cu-EC50 for M. pyrifera(2.36 µM Cu) and U. pinnatifida (3.62 µM Cu), CuT concentrations measured in the fresh media were 2.51 and to 3.84 µM CuT, respectively (Table 1).]

Like I said. More science than my brain can grasp. That quote might as well have been written in Chinese because I still don’t grasp what that the numbers mean and was it based on duration or just a mere dip?

Yet logically speaking. I’ve read that algae in general along with plants are used to purify waste water of heavy metals and where my venture started as a means to eradicate pests with copper since copper is often used as a supplement for plants since it’s an essential element and why this article seems counterintuitive as low levels being a problem.

Goal still to understand specific to macroalgae I’ll be likely using as to how high a concentration could be used as a dip or prolong yet still strong enough to either irritate pests and have them fall off or longterm exposure to remove any that hatched because the eggs weren’t affected.

Everything is lethal at some point including the oxygen we breathe and why I believe there’s a concentration where algae will survive long enough before they dilute that concentration yet potentially destroy some pests that hitched a ride. Obviously once that concentration has been identified then testing can determine when more copper needs to be added. No different than treating fish for ich yet perhaps a lower concentration needed for some pests.

Just thinking outside the box which is the only way new methods come to be. First the knowledge must be acquired which includes understanding exactly how others may have failed at it. Just as long as it’s not presented with scientific papers aimed at scholars that can grasp that but perhaps in layman terms so those like myself can grasp it. Not all keeping life in a box are scientist even if they seek science for betterment of that box.

 

[Subsea]

Zinc & iron are required trace metals.

Could you provide a source for copper as an essential seaweed element. Also, just because seaweed absorb copper does not mean copper is essential.

“since copper is often used as a supplement for plants since it’s an essential element”

 

[GARRIGA]

Found this which adds to the confusion.

Yes and very much so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
in fact macro algae (usually dead and dried) is and can be used to clean up industrial wastes sites by absorbing lotsa nasties.
Dr. Walter Addey responded to an email of mine over 10 years ago that he had designed a system using live macro algaes to remove copper from cooling water on a nuclear power generating station.
After many years of speculations that other site years ago someone linked a WHO report on copper and corals. In one paragraph they reported actual scientific under controlled conditions of copper bioaccumulation of (live) macro algae. Several different algaes were exposed to varying level of copper (up to 250ppm) for different lengths of time for up to two weeks. The results were:
---- that none of the macros had reached to max and were still accumulating more copper.
---- The accumulation by the macros was linear too both the concentration of the copper and the length of exposure.
---- One macro exposed to 250ppm copper for two weeks increased copper in the macro from 30ppm to 1055ppm.
So IMHO macro algaes and even turf algaes do accumulate copper and in very significant quantities.
If need be I can see if that study is on my home computer which could be a problem as my nas personal cloud looks like it's failing.

 

[GARRIGA]

Zinc & iron are required trace metals.

Could you provide a source for copper as an essential seaweed element. Also, just because plants or seaweed absorb copper does not mean copper is essential.

“since copper is often used as a supplement for plants since it’s an essential element”

I’m just commenting on the understanding that Cooper is an essential element of plants and macroalgae although with the latter I’ve seen conflicting comments as to needing or not needing. The internet is full of conflicting ideas and why I ask if others have considered it and trying to see how their experiences went. The particulars of what we do might not align with studies performed unless those studies were applied to our specific need and then there’s the reality that science is often updated as old notions become challenged as new methods of testing become available. Nothing ever set in stone my approach.

 

[Subsea]

The article makes perfect sense to me. Seaweed is a sponge that will absorb what is in the water and it will accumulate. Just because copper accumulates in seaweed doesn’t mean that it is essential, only that it was absorbed. The fact that it accuujates tells me that copper is not used in growth processes. Did you look at dry analysis of Gracilaria Parvispora that was posted? Ward Lab dry analysis showed 7ppm Cu when water analysis of 10K gallon showed zero Cu with detection limit at 0.001ppm

If your goal would be to feed fish copper ingested seaweed as a healthy food source, I find much merit in that direction.

It’s simplistic to eradicate everything but macroalgae when macro algae biomass is bacteria & microinverts .

Seaweed–microbial interactions: key functions of seaweed-associated bacteria

We have introduced a new topic in this area and suggested future research to understand seaweed-bacteria interactions in greater detail.

academic.oup.com

Abstract​

Seaweed-associated bacteria play a crucial role in morphogenesis and growth of seaweeds (macroalgae) in direct and/or indirect ways. Bacterial communities belonging to the phyla Proteobacteria and Firmicutes are generally the most abundant on seaweed surfaces. Associated bacterial communities produce plant growth-promoting substances, quorum sensing signalling molecules, bioactive compounds and other effective molecules that are responsible for normal morphology, development and growth of seaweeds. Also, bioactive molecules of associated bacteria determine the presence of other bacterial strains on seaweeds and protect the host from harmful entities present in the pelagic realm. The ecological functions of cross-domain signalling between seaweeds and bacteria have been reported as liberation of carpospores in the red seaweeds and settlement of zoospores in the green seaweeds. In the present review, the role of extracellular polymeric substances in growth and settlement of seaweeds spores is also highlighted. To elucidate the functional roles of associated bacteria and the molecular mechanisms underlying reported ecological phenomena in seaweeds requires

 

[GARRIGA]

The article makes perfect sense to me. Seaweed is a sponge that will absorb what is in the water and it will accumulate. Did you look at dry analysis of Gracilaria Parvispora that was posted? Ward Lab dry analysis showed 7ppm Cu when water analysis of 10K gallon showed zero Cu with detection limit at 0.001ppm

If your goal would be to feed fish copper ingested seaweed as a healthy food source, I find much merit in that direction.

It’s simplistic to eradicate everything but macroalgae when macro algae biomass is bacteria & microinverts.

Seaweed–microbial interactions: key functions of seaweed-associated bacteria

We have introduced a new topic in this area and suggested future research to understand seaweed-bacteria interactions in greater detail.

academic.oup.com

Abstract​

Seaweed-associated bacteria play a crucial role in morphogenesis and growth of seaweeds (macroalgae) in direct and/or indirect ways. Bacterial communities belonging to the phyla Proteobacteria and Firmicutes are generally the most abundant on seaweed surfaces. Associated bacterial communities produce plant growth-promoting substances, quorum sensing signalling molecules, bioactive compounds and other effective molecules that are responsible for normal morphology, development and growth of seaweeds. Also, bioactive molecules of associated bacteria determine the presence of other bacterial strains on seaweeds and protect the host from harmful entities present in the pelagic realm. The ecological functions of cross-domain signalling between seaweeds and bacteria have been reported as liberation of carpospores in the red seaweeds and settlement of zoospores in the green seaweeds. In the present review, the role of extracellular polymeric substances in growth and settlement of seaweeds spores is also highlighted. To elucidate the functional roles of associated bacteria and the molecular mechanisms underlying reported ecological phenomena in seaweeds requires

What you are able to understand doesn’t guarantee I will.

Grasp the sponge analogy but does that mean it’s not utilized by the algae over time and just accumulates like mercury in fish? The latter doesn’t seem logical to me as it applies to plant like items which apparently need copper to live. Depending what source I’ve read. Leaning towards it’s an essential and over time gets utilized vs accumulating like mercury.

 

[Subsea]

What you are able to understand doesn’t guarantee I will.

Grasp the sponge analogy but does that mean it’s not utilized by the algae over time and just accumulates like mercury in fish? The latter doesn’t seem logical to me as it applies to plant like items which apparently need copper to live. Depending what source I’ve read. Leaning towards it’s an essential and over time gets utilized vs accumulating like mercury.

Kudos to your vision. Get busy and make it happen.

Even if copper doesn’t kill seaweed, it will not effect Aptasia nor will you have 100% eradication of ich without extensive quarantine.

 

[GARRIGA]

Kudos to your vision. Get busy and make it happen.

Even if copper doesn’t kill seaweed, it will not effect Aptasia nor will you have 100% eradication of ich without extensive quarantine.

Let’s ignore ich. My mentioning it was just outlining what I seek to avoid. Have other means to resolve that not related to copper.

However, copper won’t kill aiptasia? That’s important as I thought it would. This is why knowledge is crucial.

 

[Subsea]

Let’s ignore ich. My mentioning it was just outlining what I seek to avoid. Have other means to resolve that not related to copper.

However, copper won’t kill aiptasia? That’s important as I thought it would. This is why knowledge is crucial.

I use 12% H202 with a toothbrush or a syringe to get peroxide past the Aptasia slime coat. When necessary, the eradication can be done in tank.

 

[GARRIGA]

I use 12% H202 with a toothbrush or a syringe to get peroxide past the Aptasia slime coat. When necessary, the eradication can be done in tank.

You’re recommending in tank solution but I’m wanting to eradicate in QT.

Being these are anemones then why wouldn’t copper kill them? Have heard that’s been used specifically for that yet no concentration provided.

 

[elinorholka1]

I find scientific articles more helpful than hobby websites with their conflicting opinions.

Copper pollution exacerbates the effects of ocean acidification and warming on kelp microscopic early life stages

Ocean warming (OW), ocean acidification (OA) and their interaction with local drivers, e.g., copper pollution, may negatively affect macroalgae and their microscopic life stages. We evaluated meiospore development of the kelps Macrocystis pyrifera and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Copper pollution exacerbates the effects of ocean acidification and warming on kelp microscopic early life stages​

Discussion​

Our results reveal that local anthropogenic drivers such as copper pollution have a greater impact on kelp meiospore survival and ontogenic development than global climate drivers such as OW and OA. While the independent effects of OW and OA on different early life history stage processes (e.g., meiospore germination and gametophyte growth) are mostly insignificant, the effect of copper is negative and magnified through the different developmental stages. For example, in our experiments, copper exposure (Cu-EC50) had only a moderate negative effect (5–18% reduction) on meiospore germination for all OW treatment and the ambient temperature/OA treatment and no effect for the ambient pH/temperature treatment. However, the subsequent growth of germlings was reduced by 43–68%, and sexual differentiation was inhibited regardless of seawater temperature and pH. The different sensitivities of early life history stage processes, not only to copper exposure, but also to other environmental drivers, are related to the fact that meiospore germination is an autogenous process supported by cellular lipid reserves38–40 while gametophyte growth and subsequent life-history processes are dependent on the photosynthesis and factors affecting this process40

I've seen this one, but here it's more from a scientific point of view but anyway it's interesting to read and know.
Thanks for sharing*

 

[elinorholka1]

Has anyone considered either dipping Macroalgae in copper dosed saltwater or running it with copper for several days to kill off all inverts? I’ve done this in the past with freshwater plants that were infested with snails and worked to some extent but I didn’t add copper to the point it might be lethal to fish since fish were already present yet was planning on doing that next batch of plants added but canceled my freshwater experiments.

I think this would be a good idea. When dealing with macroalgae or invertebrate-infested plants, it is essential to strike a balance between eradicating pests and ensuring the safety and well-being of existing aquatic inhabitants. Copper treatments must be approached carefully, taking into account factors such as concentration, duration of exposure and sensitivity of aquarium species.

 

[drawman]

@GARRIGA not sure if you ever came to a conclusion on this but I wonder if chloroquine phosphate would be a better QT medication for algae. I've never done it myself but it does kill aiptasia...

 

[GARRIGA]

@GARRIGA not sure if you ever came to a conclusion on this but I wonder if chloroquine phosphate would be a better QT medication for algae. I've never done it myself but it does kill aiptasia...

Have not come to any conclusions. Quick search on R2R implies chloroquine phosphate is toxic to inverts and algae but I'm not familiar with this in any capacity. I'll do more research. Thanks

Found an old video by Algae Barn where question posed was about dips and it seems that eradicating parasites not effective with algae although could just be a vendor not having tried it or not posting effectiveness as it might dip into profits. Not accusing them of that but I take all precautions with precaution. Never know until someone has tried it and that includes self which seems in my experience to be the best approach.

Most likely I'll obtain some so called clean macroalgae and once I'm ready top harvest then put that through some testing and see how it survives in a separate tank where I can monitor it. Not so much as to what the treatment kills but to how it doesn't kill the algae. Could be something others might want to do to help the community or perhaps they already have and my searching hasn't found it. Search engines and their algorithms sometimes hide the best secrets.

 

[drawman]

Have not come to any conclusions. Quick search on R2R implies chloroquine phosphate is toxic to inverts and algae but I'm not familiar with this in any capacity. I'll do more research. Thanks

Found an old video by Algae Barn where question posed was about dips and it seems that eradicating parasites not effective with algae although could just be a vendor not having tried it or not posting effectiveness as it might dip into profits. Not accusing them of that but I take all precautions with precaution. Never know until someone has tried it and that includes self which seems in my experience to be the best approach.

Most likely I'll obtain some so called clean macroalgae and once I'm ready top harvest then put that through some testing and see how it survives in a separate tank where I can monitor it. Not so much as to what the treatment kills but to how it doesn't kill the algae. Could be something others might want to do to help the community or perhaps they already have and my searching hasn't found it. Search engines and their algorithms sometimes hide the best secrets.

Ahhhh you're probably right sorry for the misinfo. I just remember someone dosing it to kill aiptasia and they had a ton of algae growth after the fact. So it probably would wipe it out.

I'm thinking of trying to get some chaeto or gracillaria. I almost think you have to cut off a small strand, freshwater dip it, and grow it in QT to determine it's pest free. You would think this would be an easy task for a company to eliminate larger pests (it's too bad they don't).

 

[GARRIGA]

Ahhhh you're probably right sorry for the misinfo. I just remember someone dosing it to kill aiptasia and they had a ton of algae growth after the fact. So it probably would wipe it out.

I'm thinking of trying to get some chaeto or gracillaria. I almost think you have to cut off a small strand, freshwater dip it, and grow it in QT to determine it's pest free. You would think this would be an easy task for a company to eliminate larger pests (it's too bad they don't).

Finding something that kills inverts but not plants would likely be the best option and why I considered copper. Obviously as a dip or separate process to not harm display tank inhabitants. Might be the answer exists with planted tanks as they often eliminate snails and where I originally got the idea for copper as it's been used in that application. Been studying planted FW tanks since the 70s but don't recall anything other than copper yet redirecting my search to that might solve my problem. Can't always get clean macroalgae as it may be out of season or out of stock or too expensive to source exactly what you want yet hobbyists keep throwing it out as a form of nutrient export and often willing to give it away or swap for other items.