CO2 scrubber plus skimmer vs. no scrubber or skimmer at all: what would lead to higher pH?

[Tim617]

Seriously dude.

This is the thread that you didn't read.

You might want to go back and read it carefully. You don't understand what you are talking about and making an argument from authority especially when the authority isn't you makes you look silly.

Randy has it correct. He (obviously) understands. You do not.

Making blanket rules is no help for you trying to understand the very complicated system you are trying to undertake. Understanding is the key here and you are not doing anything to try to understand. Forcing being right only results in dead inhabitants. I would think that that is exactly the opposite of what we are trying to accomplish in keeping salt water aquariums.

Why all the personal attacks?

So, let's take it a step at a time. Would you agree that if the CO2 concentration in the room is higher than the CO2 concentration in the water, a skimmer will raise pH?

 

[HuduVudu]

Why all the personal attacks?

So, let's take it a step at a time. Would you agree that if the CO2 concentration in the room is higher than the CO2 concentration in the water, a skimmer will raise pH?

Why are you still arguing this?

The skimmer does not raise the PH, the CO2 gradient raises (or lowers) the PH. What is so hard to understand about this. Why are you arguing this most basic fact. Your wanting it to work the way that you think it does will not make it work that way.

Also in your example, because you don't understand, the PH will go DOWN not up. Higher CO2 in the room means that the CO2 concentration in water will go UP, a skimmer will speed this process up and that is all that it will do. Without the skimmer the same process occurs only slower (or possibly faster) depending on your surface area. A good wet/dry can possibly make this transfer happen faster. When the CO2 concentration in the water goes UP then the carbonic acid concentration will also go UP. Siince carbonic acid is an acid that means there will be more hydrogen ions in the water. Since there are more hydrogen ions in the water then by definition the PH will go DOWN NOT UP.

You really really really don't get this and why you are still arguing this is beyond my understanding.

Once again .... do research.

 

[atoll]

A few points if I may.
1/ CO2 is a heavy gas and is more concentrated in the lower regions of the aquarium hence why why need add water movement/circulation to aid gas exchange.

2/ CO2 will in the most instances be higher indoors than outside.

3/ CO2 is a much more soluble gas and therefore dissolves more easily than O2 into the aquarium water.

4/ if you put a CO2 scrubber inline with the air intake of a skimmer it will reduce/ eliminate CO2 being aided into the aquarium water.

5/An algae turf scrubber will utilise CO2 and in turn help rise PH, by how much depends on many things.

6/ a skimmer can add both O2 and CO2 at the same time.

7/ dose a skimmer help gas off CO2 or help add it to the aquarium water?I suspect in many cases it adds CO2.

8/ I have measure CO2 in the aquarium cabinet and in the room my aquarium is in. There is an increase often in CO2 in the cabinet over the room.

9/ Simply opening a window will in most cases reduce CO2 in the room and aid PH.

10/ Running the skimmer air intake from outside will in most cases increase PH over the skimmer taking air from within the cabinet. I have found as I can't currently run an airline to my skimmer from outside running one from outside the cabinet aids a little but not greatly when it comes to PH level in my tank.

CO2 Level taken in my cabinet.

CO2 level taken outside my cabinet.

Both taken shortly after entereing the room so as not to greatly alter the CO2 in the room.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A few points if I may.
1/ CO2 is a heavy gas and is more concentrated in the lower regions of the aquarium hence why why need hood water movement to aid gas exchange.
2/ CO2 will in the gast instances be higher indoors than outside.
3/ CO2 is a much more soluble gas and therefore dissolves more easily than O2 into the aquarium.
4/ if you put a CO2 scrubber inline with the air intake of a skimmer it will reduce/ eliminate CO2 being aided into the aquarium water.
An algae turf scrubber will utilise CO2 and in turn help rise PH, by how much depends on many things.
5/ a skimmer can add both O2 and CO2 at the same time.
6/ dose a skimmer help gas off CO2 or help add it to the aquarium water?I suspect in many cases it adds CO2.
7/ I have measure CO2 in the aquarium cabinet and in the room my aquarium is in. There is an increase often an in CO2 in the cabinet over the room.
8/ Simply opening a window will in most cases reduce CO2 in the room.
9/ Running the skimmer air intake from outside will in most cases increase PH over the skimmer taking air from within the cabinet. I have found as I can't currently run an airline to my skimmer from outside running one from outside the cabinet aids a little but not greatly when it comes to PH level in my tank.

CO2 Level taken in my cabinet.

CO2 is heavy, but lower regions of air will ONLY ever be higher in CO2 if there is a point source of CO2 that is not mixing in. A sleeping dog might possibly get higher CO2 next to it, for example. A piece of dry ice on the floor certainly will.

In both cases, that is temporary until it mixes in.

A mixed column of air will never settle to have higher CO2 at the bottom, even if there is zero air movement. Simple diffusion of air molecules keeps it evenly mixed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

3/ CO2 is a much more soluble gas and therefore dissolves more easily than O2 into the aquarium water.

I'd be cautious with the "more easily" interpretation, regardless of the ultimate solubility.

There is a slow kinetic step in exchange of CO2, which involves the conversion of CO2 to carbon acid, and the dehydration of carbonic acid when it comes back out as CO2. That step is not required for O2, and can take many seconds.

 

[HuduVudu]

A few points if I may.
1/ CO2 is a heavy gas and is more concentrated in the lower regions of the aquarium hence why why need add water movement/circulation to aid gas exchange.

2/ CO2 will in the most instances be higher indoors than outside.

3/ CO2 is a much more soluble gas and therefore dissolves more easily than O2 into the aquarium water.

4/ if you put a CO2 scrubber inline with the air intake of a skimmer it will reduce/ eliminate CO2 being aided into the aquarium water.

5/An algae turf scrubber will utilise CO2 and in turn help rise PH, by how much depends on many things.

6/ a skimmer can add both O2 and CO2 at the same time.

7/ dose a skimmer help gas off CO2 or help add it to the aquarium water?I suspect in many cases it adds CO2.

8/ I have measure CO2 in the aquarium cabinet and in the room my aquarium is in. There is an increase often in CO2 in the cabinet over the room.

9/ Simply opening a window will in most cases reduce CO2 in the room and aid PH.

10/ Running the skimmer air intake from outside will in most cases increase PH over the skimmer taking air from within the cabinet. I have found as I can't currently run an airline to my skimmer from outside running one from outside the cabinet aids a little but not greatly when it comes to PH level in my tank.

CO2 Level taken in my cabinet.

CO2 level taken outside my cabinet.

Both taken shortly after entereing the room so as not to greatly alter the CO2 in the room.

What brand of monitor is that?

I am looking for one that doesn't collect data on a server somewhere in hyperspace.

I wished we in some cases could go back to the days when connectivity wasn't a thing.

 

[atoll]

What brand of monitor is that?

I am looking for one that doesn't collect data on a server somewhere in hyperspace.

I wished we in some cases could go back to the days when connectivity wasn't a thing.

What brand of monitor is that?

I am looking for one that doesn't collect data on a server somewhere in hyperspace.

I wished we in some cases could go back to the days when connectivity wasn't a thing.

I don't do fancy controllers just my lights, temp and ATO.
This is the meter I have with seperate temp and conductivity probes.

 

[HuduVudu]

CO2 level taken outside my cabinet.

Both taken shortly after entereing the room so as not to greatly alter the CO2 in the room.

I am looking for the brand of this CO2 monitor that you are using. I want to buy one.

 

[atoll]

I am looking for the brand of this CO2 monitor that you are using. I want to buy one.

This is the one I have, am in the UK.
I bought it via auction on eBay for 1/3 of that price though

CO2 Monitor ,Air Quality Detector for CO2, Temperature, Humidity | eBay

CO2 levels vary within an indoor space. Monitors should also be positioned at least 50cm away from people as their exhaled breath contains CO2. If your monitors are too close they may give a misleadingly high reading.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[HuduVudu]

This is the one I have, am in the UK.
I bought it via auction on eBay for 1/3 of that price though

CO2 Monitor ,Air Quality Detector for CO2, Temperature, Humidity | eBay

CO2 levels vary within an indoor space. Monitors should also be positioned at least 50cm away from people as their exhaled breath contains CO2. If your monitors are too close they may give a misleadingly high reading.

www.ebay.co.uk

That's what I needed.

Thanks a bunch.

 

[atoll]

That's what I needed.

Thanks a bunch.

There are much cheaper ones but not sure how well they perform. I got mine for £27 not via auction £80

 

[Tim617]

Why are you still arguing this?

May I ask why *you* are still arguing this? And especially, why are you personalizing this?

The skimmer does not raise the PH, the CO2 gradient raises (or lowers) the PH. What is so hard to understand about this.

That's like saying eating junk food doesn't lead to poor health. Junk food itself leads to poor health.

Why are you arguing this most basic fact. Your wanting it to work the way that you think it does will not make it work that way. Also in your example, because you don't understand, the PH will go DOWN not up. Higher CO2 in the room means that the CO2 concentration in water will go UP, a skimmer will speed this process up and that is all that it will do.

Thank you. As CO2 concentration goes up, pH will go down. The skimmer will speed up the pH going down. Aligned?

I did mistype UP in my earlier post. I meant DOWN. I am very happy that you agree.

Without the skimmer the same process occurs only slower (or possibly faster) depending on your surface area.

MUCH slower, as a skimmer is very efficient in gas exchange. So without a skimmer, the pH will still drop, but MUCH slower. That's my point.

A good wet/dry can possibly make this transfer happen faster. When the CO2 concentration in the water goes UP then the carbonic acid concentration will also go UP. Siince carbonic acid is an acid that means there will be more hydrogen ions in the water. Since there are more hydrogen ions in the water then by definition the PH will go DOWN NOT UP. You really really really don't get this and why you are still arguing this is beyond my understanding. Once again .... do research.

But I agree with you. When CO2 concentration in the room is high, a skimmer will drop pH fast. You seem to agree. Hence a no skimmer is better for high(er) pH, when the CO2 concentration is high in the room.

 

[Spare time]

I would just go with a refugium with no skimmer or scrubber. A nitrate+phosphate remover and a pH booster all in one. Plus its cheap and you may not have to do water changes.

 

[Tim617]

I would just go with a refugium with no skimmer or scrubber. A nitrate+phosphate remover and a pH booster all in one. Plus its cheap and you may not have to do water changes.

I agree. That's my plan. That and a roller filter. I will however use a algae reactor than a refugium. And some Xport bricks. I believe the days of using skimmers are past, as are the days of water changes.

 

[Spare time]

I agree. That's my plan. That and a roller filter. I will however use a algae reactor than a refugium. And some Xport bricks. I believe the days of using skimmers are past, as are the days of water changes.

I would skip the xport bricks (based on my experience).

Skimmers are, in my opinion, a tool for specific jobs rather than a universal "best" tool for every tank. Water changes are similar in my experience. Skimmers are not useless, just overused in my opinion. If a tank has serious oxygen problems for some odd reason, or a tank is so utterly packed that a refugium on its own can't hold its grown, then sure get a skimmer. Otherwise, carbon, socks/roller, and a refugium are excellent.

 

[HuduVudu]

MUCH slower, as a skimmer is very efficient in gas exchange. So without a skimmer, the pH will still drop, but MUCH slower. That's my point.

Skimmers are not as effecient at gas exchange as you think. Also once the skimmer does it's thing that is it, it is done. If you have high ambient CO2 then PH drops faster with the skimmer but then stays there. If you don't have a skimmer then the PH drops less fast and then stays there. All of this until of course the ambient CO2 changes and then the whole process happens again.

It is the concentration of room CO2 vs tank CO2 that determines the PH not a skimmer.

Again, it is the concentration of room CO2 vs tank CO2 that determines the PH not a skimmer.

The determination of whether the skimmer is "good" or "bad" for PH is a personal one which you seem to be utterly confused by. The PH is as I have stated multiple times, is mostly a function of ambient CO2.

But I agree with you. When CO2 concentration in the room is high, a skimmer will drop pH fast. You seem to agree. Hence a no skimmer is better for high(er) pH, when the CO2 concentration is high in the room.

Fast, is a relative term and the PH is dropping from the gradient of CO2 from the room to the tank, not from the skimmer.

If the CO2 concentrations are high in the room what does it matter if the PH goes down in one hour or 2 hours? It is going to go down regardless of the gas exchange from the skimmer. Whether you see this as good or bad is irrelavent to the chemistry involved. The PH is going to go down if the gradient is higher on the room side. If you want a slow descent of PH in the first few hours of the tank and you think that this is good, then fine. Just know the PH will catch up to the gradient regardless of the gas exchange. Skimmers (or lack thereof) won't stop the inevitable. The PH is going down.

Please do research instead of making these inane statements.

 

[Tim617]

I would skip the xport bricks (based on my experience).

Skimmers are, in my opinion, a tool for specific jobs rather than a universal "best" tool for every tank. Water changes are similar in my experience. Skimmers are not useless, just overused in my opinion. If a tank has serious oxygen problems for some odd reason, or a tank is so utterly packed that a refugium on its own can't hold its grown, then sure get a skimmer. Otherwise, carbon, socks/roller, and a refugium are excellent.

Thank you. Why wouldn't you use the Xport bricks, and what would you use in it's place?

 

[Tim617]

Skimmers are not as effecient at gas exchange as you think. Also once the skimmer does it's thing that is it, it is done. If you have high ambient CO2 then PH drops faster with the skimmer but then stays there. If you don't have a skimmer then the PH drops less fast and then stays there. All of this until of course the ambient CO2 changes and then the whole process happens again.

It is the concentration of room CO2 vs tank CO2 that determines the PH not a skimmer.

Skimmers are not that efficient at gas exchange? Didn't you just say earlier that skimmers provide a far higher surface area for gas exchange than just the water surface? (Which, by the way, is correct.)

And again, it is the junk food that's bad for your health, and not the fact that you eat it or how much of it you eat, and how frequently you eat it, right?

Again, it is the concentration of room CO2 vs tank CO2 that determines the PH not a skimmer.

The determination of whether the skimmer is "good" or "bad" for PH is a personal one which you seem to be utterly confused by. The PH is as I have stated multiple times, is mostly a function of ambient CO2.

Tell me, why do you always make it personal? I have asked you this a few times but never got a response. I am genuinely curious.

Fast, is a relative term and the PH is dropping from the gradient of CO2 from the room to the tank, not from the skimmer.

If the CO2 concentrations are high in the room what does it matter if the PH goes down in one hour or 2 hours? It is going to go down regardless of the gas exchange from the skimmer. Whether you see this as good or bad is irrelavent to the chemistry involved. The PH is going to go down if the gradient is higher on the room side. If you want a slow descent of PH in the first few hours of the tank and you think that this is good, then fine. Just know the PH will catch up to the gradient regardless of the gas exchange. Skimmers (or lack thereof) won't stop the inevitable. The PH is going down.

Please do research instead of making these inane statements.

If I eat junk food in super moderation vs. gorge myself with it every day, what difference does it make, as we are all going to die one day anyway, right?

 

[HuduVudu]

Tell me, why do you always make it personal?

I did not make this personal. You keep saying the same thing over and over again and then asking if we are in agreement. It is exasperating. I don't agree because what you are saying is incorrect. You even misunderstood Randy's post. I pointed that out. You said nothing. If you want to not use a skimmer then just don't use it. Just know that the reasons that you are providing are incorrect.

The junk food analogy makes me just scratch my head. There is no concept or comparison to be had here. It's like all of the other things that you have said, and like them makes zero sense. I feel for the creatures you will one day try to keep.

I don't run a skimmer on my tank. My PH is low. If I put a skimmer on it the PH won't come up.

At this point my only conclusion is that you are a troll.

Good luck on your tank when you finally get it. Maybe actual emperical knowledge might help in your understanding.

 

[Spare time]

Thank you. Why wouldn't you use the Xport bricks, and what would you use in it's place?

Basically the bricks become brittle and easily caked with detritus. I don't really recommend biomedia unless you have a packed tank with no sand and little rock. The only biomedia I use is seachem matrix because I've had some for a while and it's just cleaned pumice