Consistent Algae Scrubbing (or other nutrient export methods)

KleineVampir

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Short preface: I have a 40 gallon tank with a 20 gallon sump. Trying to run a 0 water change system and what do you know, I run into nutrient buildup. Maybe something like 8 months ago I got a Santa Monica 1.4 Drop algae scrubber, if anybody is familiar with that. In fact, here's a link to it in case you don't know what I'm talking about: https://www.santa-monica.cc/DROP14-...-surfaces--14-cubes-feeding-per-day_p_71.html

At first it got quite a bit out of my system, once it established. And things were actually alright for a while. Then it stopped growing for some reason, and the nuisance algae got out of control. And once that happens, the nuisance algae makes it very hard for the scrubber to do its job again. The question is, why did it stop working? I have a few theories, but by all means feel free to weigh in on them:

A: Slime algae buildup happened instead of hair algae for some reason and prevented the desired growth of the hair algae in the scrubber.
B: The pods that have come to 'infest' the scrubber prevented the desirable hair algae growth and fostered slime, ultimately halting desirable growth.
C: The overall nutrient buildup in the tank coupled with my bright lights (on 8 hours, i get about 100 par. I did that for my zoas.) and good flow across the rocks from the gyre created ideal conditions for nuisance algae growth and the nuisance algae simply started out-competing the scrubber.

Or it could be a combination of all 3. Now that I actually type out C, it seems even more likely. But if C is true, it begs the question: Why didn't the 1.4 handle the nutrients? In theory it's supposed to handle 1.4 cubes of food a day. At the time I was feeding one cube every other day! Now I've reduced it again down to once every 3 days! Also nuking the tank with a double dose of vibrant, and turned the scrubber off for now. Trying to reset it.

So I guess part of this is asking you guys what happened with my tank and my scrubber. The other question is, what IS a more powerful and consistent way to scrub? Should I go waterfall? I've always kinda regretted not doing that. I feel it may be much better than this drop unit which only produces flow via an air pump. Would a waterfall scrubber be more consistent, more powerful, or both? If not, what IS the ultimate scrubber? Or do you think there's actually a better method altogether such as some kind of pellet reactor. Not super educated on that but I do know there are some media reactors out there that are meant to help with your nutrients. I think I like the idea of the algae scrubber the best but let me know if you think there is actually a much better way! I like that the algae scrubber is sustainable. Once you get one, that's it. You don't have to keep buying reactor media.

But yes, I'm desperate for a more powerful nutrient export method. Apparently that drop 1.4 doesn't really cut it. I need something so powerful that nutrients just can't build up in my display!
 
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KleineVampir

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Very tempted to just get a HOG 3xx from santa monica. I have limited space in that sump. With that thing going in tandem with the drop 1.4, the scrubbing should be pretty darn strong! Maybe the takeaway from all this is that the more powerful your algae scrubber is, the better. At least for my situation. The weaker your scrubber, the more you run the risk of it being out-competed by the nuisance algae in the display.
 
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KleineVampir

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Ok, call me crazy, but I just bought the HOG 3xx! If this doesn't do it, we could just conclude that algae scrubbing isn't a viable option. But I don't think that will be the case!

When I get it, I'll stop dosing vibrant and crank that baby up!
 

Scuba Mike

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I just bought a HOG 3 for a 50 gallon tank I feed 1 cuber per day. I am hooking it up tonight. I am considering a HOG3x for my 75 gal tank I feed 3 cubes per day. 50 gal tank has random spots of nuisance algae, but nothing bad. The 75 gal has zero nuisance algae but my nutrients (phos/nitrate) are WAY over where they should be.

Please keep updating your post, as I would like some reassurance these HOG units will actually work before plopping down more money.

Mike
 

Lylelovett

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Ok, call me crazy, but I just bought the HOG 3xx! If this doesn't do it, we could just conclude that algae scrubbing isn't a viable option. But I don't think that will be the case!

When I get it, I'll stop dosing vibrant and crank that baby up!
So I’m trying to decide between the HOG and Rain... I’ve read some reviews saying the HOG membranes/interiors are harder to clean, whereas the rain is just a simple “scrape“ off the net.

What is your experience?
 

Dennis Cartier

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I would suggest it is probably not the scrubber, but the depletion of trace elements that your preferred algae requires. Are you dosing any products that are intended for fuge/chaeto/scrubber exported tanks? Iron becomes pretty depleted pretty fast when using algae for export. Brightwell has their Cheato Gro product or the ESV Transition Elements both contain iron. I would suggest trying a product like the ESV a week or two and see if you notice an improvement.

If that works, then you could look into a supplement targeted at dedicated algae export, like the Brightwell product or others.

Note: If you are iron limited, your corals will darken noticeably when you remove that limitation as their zooanthellate suck up the now available iron.

Dennis
 

Lylelovett

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I would suggest it is probably not the scrubber, but the depletion of trace elements that your preferred algae requires. Are you dosing any products that are intended for fuge/chaeto/scrubber exported tanks? Iron becomes pretty depleted pretty fast when using algae for export. Brightwell has their Cheato Gro product or the ESV Transition Elements both contain iron. I would suggest trying a product like the ESV a week or two and see if you notice an improvement.

If that works, then you could look into a supplement targeted at dedicated algae export, like the Brightwell product or others.

Note: If you are iron limited, your corals will darken noticeably when you remove that limitation as their zooanthellate suck up the now available iron.

Dennis
Is there an "iron test" that should be done, or do you just dose with a product?
 

Dennis Cartier

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Is there an "iron test" that should be done, or do you just dose with a product?
There are iron tests on the market. The knock against them is that they may not sensitive enough to read down to the levels that we would normally want to target. Red Sea has one that they state can read down to low levels and most of the others claim to as well. I would suggest reading Randy's article on iron. Chemistry And The Aquarium: Iron In A Reef Tank

I personally do not use an iron test and dose based on the growth of my chaeto and the corals. Overdosing iron does not have any dangerous repercussions other than a huge algae bloom ... or a bloom of 'something' depending on your nutrient level. Note, the ESV product has Zinc and Manganese in it in addition to iron. Be careful to NOT overdose that. Follow the directions on the bottle if you go that route.

Dennis
 
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KleineVampir

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There are iron tests on the market. The knock against them is that they may not sensitive enough to read down to the levels that we would normally want to target. Red Sea has one that they state can read down to low levels and most of the others claim to as well. I would suggest reading Randy's article on iron. Chemistry And The Aquarium: Iron In A Reef Tank

I personally do not use an iron test and dose based on the growth of my chaeto and the corals. Overdosing iron does not have any dangerous repercussions other than a huge algae bloom ... or a bloom of 'something' depending on your nutrient level. Note, the ESV product has Zinc and Manganese in it in addition to iron. Be careful to NOT overdose that. Follow the directions on the bottle if you go that route.

Dennis
Interesting that it would have no problem growing on the rocks though...
 

TheDragonsReef

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Algae scrubbers definitely work as long as they're sized correctly for your needs. If you want to run NWC you should get one 2-3x the recommended size and you have to get icp tests every once and awhile to check on trace elements. I run an algae scrubber with triton method
 

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Screwgunner

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Algae scrubbers definitely work as long as they're sized correctly for your needs. If you want to run NWC you should get one 2-3x the recommended size and you have to get icp tests every once and awhile to check on trace elements. I run an algae scrubber with triton method
Thank you for the info I started iron supplement we will see what happens. I have a good skimmer so it is depleting my iron most likely. 21 days and barely any green algea mostly brown slim . Been cleaning every three days I seen 6 or 7 spots of green on my screen
 

Hot2na

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Fwiw: this is the BEST hang on algae scrubber out there , bar none ! I ordered one 2 months ago and I am VERY impressed...easy to hook up , just hang on the back of the tank and connect a canister filter or pump and fire it up. Well designed and silent operation...hope this company gets some exposure and the product takes off !!
Algae Clean Scrubber Base Hang On Tank Unit | eBay
 

Dennis Cartier

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Interesting that it would have no problem growing on the rocks though...
If you are getting substantial algae growth on rocks and little on the screen, then it points to a possible limitation on phosphate. Rocks and other calcium based substrates act as a reservoir for phosphate. Both absorbing phosphate when the level of phosphate is higher in the water column than the level bound into the calcium based substrate, and releasing it back into the water column when the level of bound phosphate is higher than the level in the water column.

So algae growing on your rocks indicates that your water column is low in phosphate and the algae is growing where it is 'first in line' to get phosphate.

So what to do? You can either remove the affected rocks and strip them of the bound phosphate using lanthanum chloride, or you could just wait for the bound phosphate to deplete from your rocks. Depending on the amount bound, it can be a long wait. Once the level of bound phosphate in the rocks has depleted, then your algae scrubber will have the opportunity to use phosphate that is entering the water column rather than the rock based algae having their own personal stash.

Like most things in a reef tank, this will eventually works itself out on its own, but how long it takes depends on how much phosphate is bound up in your rocks.

Dennis
 
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KleineVampir

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If you are getting substantial algae growth on rocks and little on the screen, then it points to a possible limitation on phosphate. Rocks and other calcium based substrates act as a reservoir for phosphate. Both absorbing phosphate when the level of phosphate is higher in the water column than the level bound into the calcium based substrate, and releasing it back into the water column when the level of bound phosphate is higher than the level in the water column.

So algae growing on your rocks indicates that your water column is low in phosphate and the algae is growing where it is 'first in line' to get phosphate.

So what to do? You can either remove the affected rocks and strip them of the bound phosphate using lanthanum chloride, or you could just wait for the bound phosphate to deplete from your rocks. Depending on the amount bound, it can be a long wait. Once the level of bound phosphate in the rocks has depleted, then your algae scrubber will have the opportunity to use phosphate that is entering the water column rather than the rock based algae having their own personal stash.

Like most things in a reef tank, this will eventually works itself out on its own, but how long it takes depends on how much phosphate is bound up in your rocks.

Dennis
There we go! I think that sums up my problem pretty nicely! Since it's a 0 water change tank there was probably a period where the rock was just absorbing phosphate like there was no tomorrow. Oh wait, that was probably the time when my scrubber stopped scrubbing. Literally just running a skimmer is hardly enough of a nutrient export method, and that was happening for months.

This hog 3xx is growing some algae and kind of slowing down the growth on the rocks. The tides may be turning as we speak! But I dunno. I'm worried the scrubber will just stop working again and we'll start this whole cycle over again. Obviously I'm trying to suck the nitrate and phosphate out of the tank with the scrubber but it seems tricky. Hopefully with this much more powerful scrubber it can actually out-compete my display lights. That's what I think happened with the first scrubber. I got the lights strong enough to where the algae just preferred the display.
 
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KleineVampir

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Actually I just looked at the scrubber and it looks to me like it's continued to grow! This is great news because it means that it's working without the shade cloth. Pretty soon I might even be able to crank it up to full power! Yes, the unit is so powerful that even on half power it needs a shade cloth, to begin with. Otherwise it will literally be so bright that algae cannot grow.

Hm...thinking about cranking it to full blast. Might have to sleep on that one. Once the mass of algae is substantial it might appreciate the full power since it shades itself.
 
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KleineVampir

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I plugged in the second plug, so we're going full power now! I figure there's enough algae to where at least some of the algae in the back can probably grow. It's weird. It needs to grow so it can shade itself so it can grow more.
 

Pistondog

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I run triton without scheduled water changes, 2 years.
Skimmer and refugium with a stupid bright horticulture led.
You must have a volume of chaeto, softball or bigger, that can use your nutrients. A small amount can't do the job. My chaeto mat is a foot square and 3 inches deep, sitting on top of live rock, near the water surface to maximize par.
Your goals should be a large a mass of chaeto and bright light.
 

Dan_P

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Short preface: I have a 40 gallon tank with a 20 gallon sump. Trying to run a 0 water change system and what do you know, I run into nutrient buildup. Maybe something like 8 months ago I got a Santa Monica 1.4 Drop algae scrubber, if anybody is familiar with that. In fact, here's a link to it in case you don't know what I'm talking about: https://www.santa-monica.cc/DROP14-...-surfaces--14-cubes-feeding-per-day_p_71.html

At first it got quite a bit out of my system, once it established. And things were actually alright for a while. Then it stopped growing for some reason, and the nuisance algae got out of control. And once that happens, the nuisance algae makes it very hard for the scrubber to do its job again. The question is, why did it stop working? I have a few theories, but by all means feel free to weigh in on them:

A: Slime algae buildup happened instead of hair algae for some reason and prevented the desired growth of the hair algae in the scrubber.
B: The pods that have come to 'infest' the scrubber prevented the desirable hair algae growth and fostered slime, ultimately halting desirable growth.
C: The overall nutrient buildup in the tank coupled with my bright lights (on 8 hours, i get about 100 par. I did that for my zoas.) and good flow across the rocks from the gyre created ideal conditions for nuisance algae growth and the nuisance algae simply started out-competing the scrubber.

Or it could be a combination of all 3. Now that I actually type out C, it seems even more likely. But if C is true, it begs the question: Why didn't the 1.4 handle the nutrients? In theory it's supposed to handle 1.4 cubes of food a day. At the time I was feeding one cube every other day! Now I've reduced it again down to once every 3 days! Also nuking the tank with a double dose of vibrant, and turned the scrubber off for now. Trying to reset it.

So I guess part of this is asking you guys what happened with my tank and my scrubber. The other question is, what IS a more powerful and consistent way to scrub? Should I go waterfall? I've always kinda regretted not doing that. I feel it may be much better than this drop unit which only produces flow via an air pump. Would a waterfall scrubber be more consistent, more powerful, or both? If not, what IS the ultimate scrubber? Or do you think there's actually a better method altogether such as some kind of pellet reactor. Not super educated on that but I do know there are some media reactors out there that are meant to help with your nutrients. I think I like the idea of the algae scrubber the best but let me know if you think there is actually a much better way! I like that the algae scrubber is sustainable. Once you get one, that's it. You don't have to keep buying reactor media.

But yes, I'm desperate for a more powerful nutrient export method. Apparently that drop 1.4 doesn't really cut it. I need something so powerful that nutrients just can't build up in my display!
You don’t report monitoring nitrate and phosphate levels during algae scrubber operation. Did you monitor them? You also don’t mention how you managed the algae content of the scrubber. Did you harvest it very often? How did you determine the correct light level for the level of nitrate in the water? How did you determine the correct flow rate through the scrubber?

I would like to put in a plug for the idea that an algae issue is an indication of insufficient grazing.
 
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