Contradictions

[VanIsleReefTherapy]

I'm feeling pretty discouraged right now. I've posted about various things here and also on FB groups. Read books, watched BRS, Reef Dork, Mad Hatter, and many others. And there are so many contradictions it makes my head spin.

I've had some problems getting going, lost a crab to failed molt, stupidly got a Hector's Goby for a new tank on poor advice, lost the neon I traded it back in for two days later to what looks like bite wounds - in a tank with only snails, a tiny scarlet hermit, and a baby cleaner shrimp. And a largeish bristle worm.

I've been told my tank is cycled, I've been told it isn't cycled, I've been told its in a mini cycle, I've been taught how to properly calculate toxic ammonia with Ph and temp, I've been told never to test ammonia or nitrites in this tank ever again.

I've been told certain fish are okay to start with only to learn later they starve, aggressive fish are supposed to come later, but clowns are hardy and should go first, but they are also damsels, yet care shows them to be peaceful, but they're territorial jerks that bite you. Non-sifting gobies don't need pods, but all gobies eat pods, you don't need to feed hermits and CUC, you have to feed them, wait months to a year to add coral, add hardy coral (GSP) as soon as cycled, cycling is possible instantly with the right product, 4 days (when I had nothing left but nitrates) to 3 weeks with Microbacter7, but it really it takes many months, have lights on from the beginning, don't turn them on until you have critters that need light, stay on top of nuisance algae before its a problem, but it's just the uglies, it's a good sign the cycle is progressing and most of it will go away on its own. Use live rock, cure dry rock and avoid hitchhikers, most hitchhikers are neutral to good and bring necessary diversity to your ecosystem, take bristleworms out they are the spawn of the devil, bristleworms are the best free CUC, bristleworms never bother anything alive, but that big one might have attacked your fish, micro brittles will overrun a new tank so I'm begging you to please take it out, micro brittles are golden and I'm begging you to send it to me if you dont want it, inverts should be in fishless QT for 76 days, start that over if any new inverts are added, just keep track of each one for 76 days, inverts "don't count" can't carry ich and should go straight into DT, dose everything in QT prophyactically, but observe and don't treat unless something shows signs of sickness because it stresses your fish, if you don't QT aggressively its only a matter of time before your whole tank will crash from ich or velvet, and so on and so on.

I think I'm just going to enjoy my cleaner shrimp, snails and hermit for a while and watch my coralline grow. My inverts are happy, and now I'm scared of fish. I don't know what to believe. I'm doing so much research and trying ro learn, but sometimes it just makes things worse and I'm paralyzed.

I love learning and research, but I don't know what to believe half the time and that makes learning very hard. It's worse than having your first baby, or trying to decipher public health guidelines in a pandemic! Everything is so polarized.

How do you manage all the contradictory opinions, wisdom, protocols, etc. ?

 

[Projects with Sam]

I draw my own conclusions and just take everything else under advisement.
JLJ ( Just listen to Jay )

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

This is the truest thing I've seen on here all week! I wanted to react to your post with the laughing face, but didn't want you to think I was laughing AT you, lol!
It can be very confusing and very frustrating. My best advice (because you clearly need more of that!) is to reach out to an experienced person here or on another forum whose tank looks the way you want yours to, and ask them how they did it.
Good luck, and thanks for expressing what so many have felt when getting started.

 

[Gtinnel]

What you have listed is very true and honestly one of the things I like about the hobby, there are many ways to get to the same goal of a successful tank. This hobby would be boring if everyone did everything the exact same way.

 

[Gtinnel]

The actual best answer that I can give is to look at what the person giving the advice has accomplished. If their tank is what you want yours to be then take their advice a little more seriously, but remember you have to find out what is right for you.

Also, when talking about the behavior of an animal remember that all individuals are different. You may have a clownfish that is mean while someone else has clownfish that are shy and docile.

 

[DaJMasta]

By just sticking with what you've got for a bit, you'll already be increasing your likelihood that things will work in the future - there is certainly something to be said for age of a tank and familiarity of that tank to the person taking care of that.

There's a lot of conflicting information, sometimes because it's not well established what the actual cause is, sometimes because the cause is not something most people are equipped to actually verify, sometimes because different methods can actually work with substantially different other factors, sometimes because people attributed a success or failure in their own experience to the wrong thing and then talk about it like an absolute, and sometimes because it's just parroted or 'I thought I remembered it this way' sort of information.

My advice would be to spend some time trying to learn about the organisms in your tank, what they need, how they act, and how a tank can facilitate that. I would stick to educational format content, whether articles, videos, lectures, books, whatever, and try to focus on understanding the reasons why things may work or may not rather than the specifics of which thing worked or didn't in some particular case. When you've been introduced to some knowledgeable people speaking or writing on related subjects, you'll have both a better understanding of the underlying systems at play that are ultimately deciding your success or failure with a certain organism and you'll better be able to spot people who are making claims that don't quite add up or seem like they are missing pertinent details.

As with a lot of topics, I would listen more to people who answer not in absolutes or vague claims, but in details, specifics, and a hesitation to use any broad reaching claim without qualifying it heavily. The reality is that the little ecosystem we're trying to keep in our house is enormously complex, and both has things at play which are not yet fully understood by humans and things that are understood and documented but which are extremely hard to quantify or even monitor without expensive scientific equipment, testing, and understanding, so I'd avoid sources of advice that don't at least appear to acknowledge the unknowns around their claims or their own limited understanding of what's going on... because literally everyone giving advice doesn't understand parts of it, and even the most adept and studious hobbyists aren't monitoring enough factors with enough accuracy to claim they have a 100% complete understanding of what's happening in their box of water.

When you've absorbed enough information to start forming and challenging your own concept of what's going on and what direction you could go with it, you're on a good track and maybe you can plan on adding something more.

 

[Tonycass12]

Ah the good old "ask 10 reefers, get 15 answers" is a tale as old as time

 

[Dan_P]

I'm feeling pretty discouraged right now. I've posted about various things here and also on FB groups. Read books, watched BRS, Reef Dork, Mad Hatter, and many others. And there are so many contradictions it makes my head spin.

I've had some problems getting going, lost a crab to failed molt, stupidly got a Hector's Goby for a new tank on poor advice, lost the neon I traded it back in for two days later to what looks like bite wounds - in a tank with only snails, a tiny scarlet hermit, and a baby cleaner shrimp. And a largeish bristle worm.

I've been told my tank is cycled, I've been told it isn't cycled, I've been told its in a mini cycle, I've been taught how to properly calculate toxic ammonia with Ph and temp, I've been told never to test ammonia or nitrites in this tank ever again.

I've been told certain fish are okay to start with only to learn later they starve, aggressive fish are supposed to come later, but clowns are hardy and should go first, but they are also damsels, yet care shows them to be peaceful, but they're territorial jerks that bite you. Non-sifting gobies don't need pods, but all gobies eat pods, you don't need to feed hermits and CUC, you have to feed them, wait months to a year to add coral, add hardy coral (GSP) as soon as cycled, cycling is possible instantly with the right product, 4 days (when I had nothing left but nitrates) to 3 weeks with Microbacter7, but it really it takes many months, have lights on from the beginning, don't turn them on until you have critters that need light, stay on top of nuisance algae before its a problem, but it's just the uglies, it's a good sign the cycle is progressing and most of it will go away on its own. Use live rock, cure dry rock and avoid hitchhikers, most hitchhikers are neutral to good and bring necessary diversity to your ecosystem, take bristleworms out they are the spawn of the devil, bristleworms are the best free CUC, bristleworms never bother anything alive, but that big one might have attacked your fish, micro brittles will overrun a new tank so I'm begging you to please take it out, micro brittles are golden and I'm begging you to send it to me if you dont want it, inverts should be in fishless QT for 76 days, start that over if any new inverts are added, just keep track of each one for 76 days, inverts "don't count" can't carry ich and should go straight into DT, dose everything in QT prophyactically, but observe and don't treat unless something shows signs of sickness because it stresses your fish, if you don't QT aggressively its only a matter of time before your whole tank will crash from ich or velvet, and so on and so on.

I think I'm just going to enjoy my cleaner shrimp, snails and hermit for a while and watch my coralline grow. My inverts are happy, and now I'm scared of fish. I don't know what to believe. I'm doing so much research and trying ro learn, but sometimes it just makes things worse and I'm paralyzed.

I love learning and research, but I don't know what to believe half the time and that makes learning very hard. It's worse than having your first baby, or trying to decipher public health guidelines in a pandemic! Everything is so polarized.

How do you manage all the contradictory opinions, wisdom, protocols, etc. ?

You might be in the wrong hobby.

 

[brmc1985]

I'm feeling pretty discouraged right now. I've posted about various things here and also on FB groups. Read books, watched BRS, Reef Dork, Mad Hatter, and many others. And there are so many contradictions it makes my head spin.

I've had some problems getting going, lost a crab to failed molt, stupidly got a Hector's Goby for a new tank on poor advice, lost the neon I traded it back in for two days later to what looks like bite wounds - in a tank with only snails, a tiny scarlet hermit, and a baby cleaner shrimp. And a largeish bristle worm.

I've been told my tank is cycled, I've been told it isn't cycled, I've been told its in a mini cycle, I've been taught how to properly calculate toxic ammonia with Ph and temp, I've been told never to test ammonia or nitrites in this tank ever again.

I've been told certain fish are okay to start with only to learn later they starve, aggressive fish are supposed to come later, but clowns are hardy and should go first, but they are also damsels, yet care shows them to be peaceful, but they're territorial jerks that bite you. Non-sifting gobies don't need pods, but all gobies eat pods, you don't need to feed hermits and CUC, you have to feed them, wait months to a year to add coral, add hardy coral (GSP) as soon as cycled, cycling is possible instantly with the right product, 4 days (when I had nothing left but nitrates) to 3 weeks with Microbacter7, but it really it takes many months, have lights on from the beginning, don't turn them on until you have critters that need light, stay on top of nuisance algae before its a problem, but it's just the uglies, it's a good sign the cycle is progressing and most of it will go away on its own. Use live rock, cure dry rock and avoid hitchhikers, most hitchhikers are neutral to good and bring necessary diversity to your ecosystem, take bristleworms out they are the spawn of the devil, bristleworms are the best free CUC, bristleworms never bother anything alive, but that big one might have attacked your fish, micro brittles will overrun a new tank so I'm begging you to please take it out, micro brittles are golden and I'm begging you to send it to me if you dont want it, inverts should be in fishless QT for 76 days, start that over if any new inverts are added, just keep track of each one for 76 days, inverts "don't count" can't carry ich and should go straight into DT, dose everything in QT prophyactically, but observe and don't treat unless something shows signs of sickness because it stresses your fish, if you don't QT aggressively its only a matter of time before your whole tank will crash from ich or velvet, and so on and so on.

I think I'm just going to enjoy my cleaner shrimp, snails and hermit for a while and watch my coralline grow. My inverts are happy, and now I'm scared of fish. I don't know what to believe. I'm doing so much research and trying ro learn, but sometimes it just makes things worse and I'm paralyzed.

I love learning and research, but I don't know what to believe half the time and that makes learning very hard. It's worse than having your first baby, or trying to decipher public health guidelines in a pandemic! Everything is so polarized.

How do you manage all the contradictory opinions, wisdom, protocols, etc. ?

Honestly, I take everything online(me included) with a grain of salt. Watch a video on YouTube…it’s either because it was “recommended” to you by an “algorithm” that definitely doesn’t not want to sell you something subliminally(it’s actually more obvious than that) or you actually searched for it and they gave you the “results” that you asked for.

 

[KonradTO]

I'm feeling pretty discouraged right now. I've posted about various things here and also on FB groups. Read books, watched BRS, Reef Dork, Mad Hatter, and many others. And there are so many contradictions it makes my head spin.

I've had some problems getting going, lost a crab to failed molt, stupidly got a Hector's Goby for a new tank on poor advice, lost the neon I traded it back in for two days later to what looks like bite wounds - in a tank with only snails, a tiny scarlet hermit, and a baby cleaner shrimp. And a largeish bristle worm.

I've been told my tank is cycled, I've been told it isn't cycled, I've been told its in a mini cycle, I've been taught how to properly calculate toxic ammonia with Ph and temp, I've been told never to test ammonia or nitrites in this tank ever again.

I've been told certain fish are okay to start with only to learn later they starve, aggressive fish are supposed to come later, but clowns are hardy and should go first, but they are also damsels, yet care shows them to be peaceful, but they're territorial jerks that bite you. Non-sifting gobies don't need pods, but all gobies eat pods, you don't need to feed hermits and CUC, you have to feed them, wait months to a year to add coral, add hardy coral (GSP) as soon as cycled, cycling is possible instantly with the right product, 4 days (when I had nothing left but nitrates) to 3 weeks with Microbacter7, but it really it takes many months, have lights on from the beginning, don't turn them on until you have critters that need light, stay on top of nuisance algae before its a problem, but it's just the uglies, it's a good sign the cycle is progressing and most of it will go away on its own. Use live rock, cure dry rock and avoid hitchhikers, most hitchhikers are neutral to good and bring necessary diversity to your ecosystem, take bristleworms out they are the spawn of the devil, bristleworms are the best free CUC, bristleworms never bother anything alive, but that big one might have attacked your fish, micro brittles will overrun a new tank so I'm begging you to please take it out, micro brittles are golden and I'm begging you to send it to me if you dont want it, inverts should be in fishless QT for 76 days, start that over if any new inverts are added, just keep track of each one for 76 days, inverts "don't count" can't carry ich and should go straight into DT, dose everything in QT prophyactically, but observe and don't treat unless something shows signs of sickness because it stresses your fish, if you don't QT aggressively its only a matter of time before your whole tank will crash from ich or velvet, and so on and so on.

I think I'm just going to enjoy my cleaner shrimp, snails and hermit for a while and watch my coralline grow. My inverts are happy, and now I'm scared of fish. I don't know what to believe. I'm doing so much research and trying ro learn, but sometimes it just makes things worse and I'm paralyzed.

I love learning and research, but I don't know what to believe half the time and that makes learning very hard. It's worse than having your first baby, or trying to decipher public health guidelines in a pandemic! Everything is so polarized.

How do you manage all the contradictory opinions, wisdom, protocols, etc. ?

LOL. People here are just people. Maybe they are bored and want to contribute to threads while they are commuting to work or laying on the sofa.
Short story:
The DNA expert in my lab told me to use this method for doing this experiment. It has been done like that since ever and it works (the method involves using toxic chemicals but it's cheap). I suggested to try something different, but I have been told that that was the best way. In the end I did it my way, doing some research on my own and spending a week of trial&error experiments, no toxic chemicals, and it worked the same way in the end. When I pointed out that it was better because safer with same outcome I have been told that they continue to do it in their own way because it has been done like that for years and it always worked.
Also experts are wrong sometimes. The important thing is that you find the right resources for learning and do not believe in weird blogs or youtubers. Then you can learn your way, maybe you find a better method/strategy

 

[Jedi1199]

I'm feeling pretty discouraged right now. I've posted about various things here and also on FB groups. Read books, watched BRS, Reef Dork, Mad Hatter, and many others. And there are so many contradictions it makes my head spin.

I've had some problems getting going, lost a crab to failed molt, stupidly got a Hector's Goby for a new tank on poor advice, lost the neon I traded it back in for two days later to what looks like bite wounds - in a tank with only snails, a tiny scarlet hermit, and a baby cleaner shrimp. And a largeish bristle worm.

I've been told my tank is cycled, I've been told it isn't cycled, I've been told its in a mini cycle, I've been taught how to properly calculate toxic ammonia with Ph and temp, I've been told never to test ammonia or nitrites in this tank ever again.

I've been told certain fish are okay to start with only to learn later they starve, aggressive fish are supposed to come later, but clowns are hardy and should go first, but they are also damsels, yet care shows them to be peaceful, but they're territorial jerks that bite you. Non-sifting gobies don't need pods, but all gobies eat pods, you don't need to feed hermits and CUC, you have to feed them, wait months to a year to add coral, add hardy coral (GSP) as soon as cycled, cycling is possible instantly with the right product, 4 days (when I had nothing left but nitrates) to 3 weeks with Microbacter7, but it really it takes many months, have lights on from the beginning, don't turn them on until you have critters that need light, stay on top of nuisance algae before its a problem, but it's just the uglies, it's a good sign the cycle is progressing and most of it will go away on its own. Use live rock, cure dry rock and avoid hitchhikers, most hitchhikers are neutral to good and bring necessary diversity to your ecosystem, take bristleworms out they are the spawn of the devil, bristleworms are the best free CUC, bristleworms never bother anything alive, but that big one might have attacked your fish, micro brittles will overrun a new tank so I'm begging you to please take it out, micro brittles are golden and I'm begging you to send it to me if you dont want it, inverts should be in fishless QT for 76 days, start that over if any new inverts are added, just keep track of each one for 76 days, inverts "don't count" can't carry ich and should go straight into DT, dose everything in QT prophyactically, but observe and don't treat unless something shows signs of sickness because it stresses your fish, if you don't QT aggressively its only a matter of time before your whole tank will crash from ich or velvet, and so on and so on.

I think I'm just going to enjoy my cleaner shrimp, snails and hermit for a while and watch my coralline grow. My inverts are happy, and now I'm scared of fish. I don't know what to believe. I'm doing so much research and trying ro learn, but sometimes it just makes things worse and I'm paralyzed.

I love learning and research, but I don't know what to believe half the time and that makes learning very hard. It's worse than having your first baby, or trying to decipher public health guidelines in a pandemic! Everything is so polarized.

How do you manage all the contradictory opinions, wisdom, protocols, etc. ?

You are absolutely correct in your assessment of advice given in this hobby. The opinions and advice is almost as widely diverse as the ocean itself. @DaJMasta said it quite well. None of us know it all. We have learned, sometimes through blind luck, and sometimes bitter experience what does and doesn't work in our own system.

Experience is the best teacher. No matter how much research you do, no matter how many opinions you get or advice you are given, you will have failures. Accept this as a natural part of the learning process. None of us have gotten where we are without a misstep here and there. It is an unfortunate reality we all must face. None of us want to see a fish or coral die, but it happens. We do our best to learn what happened to avoid repeating it.

The contradictory information becomes easier to decipher as your experience level increases.

One piece of advice you will see over and over here that actually is NOT contradictory, BE PATIENT! Those beautiful tanks that inspired you to start this hobby, didn't happen in overnight. Practice, patience, dedication, patience, experience and a LOT more patience made those tanks what they are.

Stick it out... The rewards of admiring your beautiful tank are worth the effort.

One day, you will look into your beautiful slice of the ocean and think back at this time and laugh at all of the things that seem so overwhelming to you now.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

There are no rules in this hobby, only opinions and preferences, and when you come to an internet forum, then you really get opinions and preferences. Everyone should understand that.

No 2 tanks in the world are exactly the same, every tank is unique and different. Thats why you should be careful about following one persons advise, because what worked in their tank might not neccessarily work on yours.

 

[damsels are not mean]

Instead of listening to/following whatever the peanut gallery of internet forums and social media (especially Facebook, that is a cesspool of horrible advice) find somebody who has a tank you like and do what they do. Forum info is riddled with myths, guesses and made up cliches. Some youtubers have very detailed vids about their setup and process others not so much. If you find somebody on here whose tank you like, they may have a detailed build thread. Even if they don't, most people are not going to hate you asking a few questions here and there.

 

[brandon429]

When you’re told something that sounds controversial but then you are given four links of 250 reef tanks from other people running the claim and working well, that you can read the outcomes for yourself, it isn’t controversial it’s proven before your eyes


when you are told something in a big paragraph written first person, with no links from 250 at home reef tanks running the claim, that’s controversial.


often what makes a claim such as ‘never test for ammonia after cycling’ seem controversial is when you’re given the proof links, but don’t read them. Helps to seek out proof for claims especially if they’re given to you at the time of the claim. It’s impossible to align 250 reefs in other peoples homes with bad science. Bad science will kill their reefs, good science keeps them alive.

what works for other peoples reefs in pattern is solid science.

 

[Floyd-]

Honestly its like this in any hobby.
I just read, ask questions and then come to my own educated conclusions. Also only take advice from people that can prove results with pictures of their own tanks.

 

[blaxsun]

With anything, YMMV (your mileage may vary). Fish that should be peaceful... aren't, fish that supposedly get along... don't, things that are reef-safe... turn out not to be. A lot of this is "best guess" - there really aren't anything certainties other than everything in your tank is going to die at some point.

 

[Tuan’s Reef]

It has been said many times that there are different paths to success. Pick the one you believe in and see if that works. Learn from your mistakes and take it and make it your own.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Some of the others here have already given some good comments - DajMasta’s comment is especially helpful.

The best advice I can give to cut through all the bad advice on these forums is to research individual species in depth (what they eat, what common issues with them are, how to deal with those issues, etc.). With tank stuff, people have so many widely varied and successful approaches that I’ll just say pick a philosophy you think sounds good and give it a shot, odds are it’ll work out alright.

With contradictions on hitchhikers in the tank (like micro-brittle stars and bristleworms), I do some research and generally end up concluding that they’re not as bad as people say (obviously there are exceptions, like bobbits, aiptasia, etc., but bristleworms, asterina starfish, a lot of sponges, a lot of nudibranchs, etc. by most accounts that actually try to rule out other causes aren’t issues and may actually be beneficial).

With contradictions on quarantine information, I did a bunch of research and found out why things like the 76 days recommendation are in place and why people say you don’t need to quarantine inverts, corals, macros, etc. (these all actually can carry parasites and other issues in, but people say they don’t need quarantined because the chances of them carrying parasites are slim since they can’t be infected by them - these actually can still carry parasites in while the parasites are in certain stages of their lives). Generally, if you want good quarantine/disease treatment advice, just look for Jay Hemdal’s stuff and you’ll be on the right track.

With feeding of inverts, people give some really terrible advice because for most people their inverts feed off of pods/algae in their tank or whatever they feed their fish. Inverts do need fed, but for most people their normal tank care routine takes care of it, so they don’t view it as feeding their inverts when they feed their fish. I’m largely convinced this is why you see so many issues with inverts dying in tanks (exceptions given to most starfish which have diets we can’t really replicate in our tanks yet) - people don’t think they need to feed them, and they starve.

Anyway, stepping down from my soapbox, do a bunch of research, and basically the more specific the research the better. This will help cut through a lot of common misconceptions you might come across online and help you figure out what to believe and what not to believe.

 

[VanIsleReefTherapy]

You might be in the wrong hobby.

Okay, this is the kind of response that's very unhelpful, and that you might consider keeping to yourself, especially in a beginners forum. But you do you and I'll just know who *not* to listen to. Thanks!

Honestly, I take everything online(me included) with a grain of salt. Watch a video on YouTube…it’s either because it was “recommended” to you by an “algorithm” that definitely doesn’t not want to sell you something subliminally(it’s actually more obvious than that) or you actually searched for it and they gave you the “results” that you asked for.

I sought out folks on YouTube whom I'd seen recommended several times. There's somewhat less contradiction between those folks than in older books that were recommended and people in the hobby, in forums, etc.

Yeah, I'm tending a small salt mine over here!

 

[VanIsleReefTherapy]

You are absolutely correct in your assessment of advice given in this hobby. The opinions and advice is almost as widely diverse as the ocean itself. @DaJMasta said it quite well. None of us know it all. We have learned, sometimes through blind luck, and sometimes bitter experience what does and doesn't work in our own system.

Experience is the best teacher. No matter how much research you do, no matter how many opinions you get or advice you are given, you will have failures. Accept this as a natural part of the learning process. None of us have gotten where we are without a misstep here and there. It is an unfortunate reality we all must face. None of us want to see a fish or coral die, but it happens. We do our best to learn what happened to avoid repeating it.

The contradictory information becomes easier to decipher as your experience level increases.

One piece of advice you will see over and over here that actually is NOT contradictory, BE PATIENT! Those beautiful tanks that inspired you to start this hobby, didn't happen in overnight. Practice, patience, dedication, patience, experience and a LOT more patience made those tanks what they are.

Stick it out... The rewards of admiring your beautiful tank are worth the effort.

One day, you will look into your beautiful slice of the ocean and think back at this time and laugh at all of the things that seem so overwhelming to you now.

Thanks for the encouragement! I've seen from watching and listening that losses, crashes, well-intentioned errors and random unexplainable deaths are part of the hobby. It's not fun, but it's how you learn.

I have faith that it will get easier. I raised a baby with similar conflicting info and I got through it. It's just exasperating and confusing sometimes. Thanks for your kindness.