controlling NO3/PO4 in office nano

[JoJosReef]

Hi all, first time posting in the chem forum (Hi Randy! Big fan!).

I have an office IM Nuvo 10g tank set up in Jan 2022, with 100% gulf premium nano rocks and sand from TBS. Has been running with LFS-bought RSCP salt, but parameters are a bit lower due to LFS inconsistencies (Alk around 8.5-9). So I am switching to office RODI + HW salt soon.

Nitrates have been running high (10-20ppm, Red Sea), phosphates higher (0.75-1ppm, Salifert). I have a crocea clam coming this week and want to improve parameters a bit, primarily lower PO4.

Stocking: porcelain crabs, pom pom crab, sexy shrimp // LPS coral, RFAs, pavona, zoas, favia // macroalgae--> tailspot blenny and firefish coming Wedn.

I've been feeding heavy for filter feeders (porcelain crabs, sponges, fan worms) with:
RuSalty Oyster feast
RuSalty Naturose phyto
RuSalty coral ecstasy
RuSalty Zu Feast
RuSalty Ova Feast
RuSalty Mysis feast
Live phyto
Hikari frozen krill (target to crabs/nems)

1g WC every M-W-F.

Recently reduced amount broadcast by about half (1mL mixture total per day), but PO4 is not dropping although NO4 dropped from 20ppm to ~10-15ppm.

I also have an AIO chamber full of Seachem matrix and gulf rock rubble. I don't know if that is overkill and if affects NO4/PO4 levels or not.

Been trying to go natural with this tank, just relying on the live rock/sand.

Do I need to change strategies? Was avoiding additives like Microbacter7, but should I reconsider? Any other natural routes/additives that won't imbalance my biodiversity?

Thanks so much!

 

[blaxsun]

What else are you running for filtration? Filter sock or media caddy?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Welcome to Chemistry!

I think lowering phosphate would be a good idea. Growing macroalgae can help, but you deplete nitrate before phosphate and may need to dose nitrate if you go that route.

Something like GFO is an alternative, or maybe lanthanum.

 

[jda]

If you are feeding filter feeders, then po4 will nearly always be an issue and you will need to find a way to lower it - the food is just messy. You don't need to feed the photosynthetic corals - they will do fine with just light. GFO works - use small amounts in active capacity and change it frequently. Lanthanum Chloride works too, but it works best with socks or other filters - it can be fine if you just let it broadcast through the tank, but there are anecdotal experiences of fish gills and some filter feeders not being happy with the flocculant (enough to pay attention to). You need a good skimmer and/or socks to use Lanthanum.

Whatever you choose, you will need to go slow and be patient - the rocks and sand will have likely bound quite a bit of phosphate, so it takes a while for the reservoir to deplete. I would take 4-6 months to lower the levels just to be safe.

Just cutting back on feeding corals might be enough to lower the nitrate.

Sensitive inverts like Tridacna don't particularly care for phosphate levels that high. I would put off the clam until you are able to lower the po4.

 

[JoJosReef]

Welcome to Chemistry!

I think lowering phosphate would be a good idea. Growing macroalgae can help, but you deplete nitrate before phosphate and may need to dose nitrate if you go that route.

Something like GFO is an alternative, or maybe lanthanum.

What else are you running for filtration? Filter sock or media caddy?

In the first AIO chamber, I have an Intank Media Basket with cut floss at the top, middle rack taken out so just one slot below containing a big mesh bag of gulf rock rubble with a fine mesh bag sitting on top with a spoonful of ROXX activated carbon (BRS) and spoon of Purigen.

Then the water flows through the second chamber which has first a mesh bag full of Seachem Matrix, then 2 mesh bags with more gulf rock rubble--some worms and sponges present on the rocks, and seems to get detritus build-up even with the floss in chamber 1.

Over the baffle into the 3rd chamber I just have 1) Mightyjet 326 return pump, 2) Aqueon preset heater and 3) gorilla crab that appeared out of nowhere.

Thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley , I am going for about 1/4 of my stocking with display macroalgae (currently pom pom gracilaria, brotycladia, large galaxauria and a small piece of blue hypnea). I am happy to dose some NeoNitro if levels drop ... do you think start dosing once below 5ppm NO4? I am not familiar with lanthanum and will start googling.

Appreciate the guidance!

 

[Uncle99]

Red Sea coral pro pushes 11.5dkh but your running 8.5-9.0.
This could create instability when changing water.
I assume that’s why your changing salt, but again, changes create instabilities not enjoyed by your good guy bacteria team.

 

[JoJosReef]

If you are feeding filter feeders, then po4 will nearly always be an issue and you will need to find a way to lower it - the food is just messy. You don't need to feed the photosynthetic corals - they will do fine with just light. GFO works - use small amounts in active capacity and change it frequently. Lanthanum Chloride works too, but it works best with socks or other filters - it can be fine if you just let it broadcast through the tank, but there are anecdotal experiences of fish gills and some filter feeders not being happy with the flocculant (enough to pay attention to). You need a good skimmer and/or socks to use Lanthanum.

Whatever you choose, you will need to go slow and be patient - the rocks and sand will have likely bound quite a bit of phosphate, so it takes a while for the reservoir to deplete. I would take 4-6 months to lower the levels just to be safe.

Just cutting back on feeding corals might be enough to lower the nitrate.

Sensitive inverts like Tridacna don't particularly care for phosphate levels that high. I would put off the clam until you are able to lower the po4.

Thanks! I have PhosGuard at home. I understand that is a decent substitute for GFO. Correct? I have 2 fish arriving this week, so will do more reading on the Lanthanum before working on it.

No skimmer in this tank, just water changes 3x per week.

Unfortunately, I bought the clam several weeks ago and have pushed off delivery to the max. Will try to bring it down gradually. I was thinking originally that 5-10ppm NO3 and 0.1 ppm PO4 would be a good range.

 

[JoJosReef]

Red Sea coral pro pushes 11.5dkh but your running 8.5-9.0.
This could create instability when changing water.
I assume that’s why your changing salt, but again, changes create instabilities not enjoyed by your good guy bacteria team.

Yes, I probably would have been happy staying with RSCP from my LFS, but 3 times I've gotten batches that were way off on parameters. Originally, was getting consistent alk in the 11ish range at 1.026sg, but lately I've been getting batches of salt closer to 9dKh and 1.023-1.024sg. Maybe it is just because of the lower salinity? Maybe they are mixing something else in there like blue bucket? I also received a batch at 1.039sg which I returned. 3 strikes, so I just bought a RODI buddy and since my tank seems to be happy in the 9dKh range (and is currently at 8.5dKh), thought I'd switch to HW and do something like daily 1qt water changes till everything is happy with the new salt.

 

[jda]

That range is probably fine of 5-10N and .1 po4.

Dr. Holmes-Farley might suggest against Phosguard and has written a lot about it. I have used it before and did not have any issues with accumulated aluminum, but I also rinsed it will and did not let it tumble... and I have large tanks with plenty of filtration. I don't like to speak for people, but I imagine that a post about the possible accumulation of aluminum in a small tank is coming from him.

Whether you use aluminum oxide or GFO, it will quickly be exhausted, can release phosphate if the water level gets lower. I would recommend using very small amount and changing them often. ...like daily, almost. Always remove any media that is in the tank when you perform your water change or the lowered water level will cause po4 be be released from the GFO or Phosguard back into the water and you will have wasted any po4 lowering benefit of the water change.

Basically, what the GFO or AO binds, it can unbind too.

I would use like 1/4 of the recommended amount having water forced through it actively and change it daily. It can be a pain, but this is the most efficient way for it to work.

 

[JoJosReef]

Makes sense with the filter feeder foods. Forgot to mention I also have a large gorgonian (photosynthetic, but I like feeding it).

I suppose the major question now is, which product?

PhosGuard (have in house, but not keen on leaking Al).

GFO (not keen on GFO dust...)
PhosBan vs. ROWAphos vs. Brightwell Ferroxiphos-G vs. BRS

Currently leaning PhosBan based on reviews at BRS site. Will go in a very fine mesh bag (jewelry mesh). Any major concerns with these? Thanks!!

 

[jda]

AFAIK, GFO is made at only one or two places on the planet and the rest is marketing and labeling, other than high vs. regular capacity, which seems to matter. I would just get whatever is cheaper. Just rise in well, if you decide to use it. It is no big deal. Just make sure that the water is forced through it or else it will go around and not be as effective.

With GFO, you are working against the clock. If used passively, it can develop an organic coating and not be effective anymore if it is in the tank for long.

I used to use a lot of GFO to lower phosphate in live rock that I would get from shut-down systems. I love real live rock, so this is the only way to get it, but I have to work on it. I used to just buy 5 gallon buckets unbranded from Amazon or eBay - these are the same buckets that BRS or whomever put their stickers on. It worked fine. I have since switched to using Lan Chloride since it is cheaper and easier, but the tubs are large and have skimmers. I would change it every other day.

Either the AO or GFO will quickly bind to po4 in the water column. It could be exhausted in hours. As that level lowers, the aragonite will release. The aragonite release will happen quickly at first with the exterior structure. As you keep on doing this, it will take longer for the aragonite to release since you have to get further and further into the rock and deeper into the sand where local concentrations can be higher but the water flow is slower. The best way to do this is not to spike the water level po4 down really low only to have it jump back up the next day. The idea is slow and steady where it is more of a constant downward line rather than a EKG. This is why I recommend small amounts changed frequently trying to bind at the same rate that the rock is releasing. You want a test to show small gains and not from 1.0 down to .05 after media use and then back up to .98 the next day. Lowering po4 is no problem, but doing it too fast, or with too many spikes has kinda proven to be.

 

[blaxsun]

In the first AIO chamber, I have an Intank Media Basket with cut floss at the top, middle rack taken out so just one slot below containing a big mesh bag of gulf rock rubble with a fine mesh bag sitting on top with a spoonful of ROXX activated carbon (BRS) and spoon of Purigen.

I don't know how often you change out your filter floss, but you might find that changing it more frequently (ie: every 3-5 days) helps pull more nitrates out of your system.

 

[JoJosReef]

I don't know how often you change out your filter floss, but you might find that changing it more frequently (ie: every 3-5 days) helps pull more nitrates out of your system.

Mon and Wedn I take it out and rinse it clean during water change. Friday, swap out a new one! It does get brown quickly with the liquid Naturose from RuSalty (which is a deep red color).

 

[blaxsun]

Is it filter floss or the pre-packaged filtration that it comes with?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Hey maybe give Aquaforest Pro Bio F a try...it's probiotic bacteria with a carbon source together and should bring down your nitrates and phosphates...it's designed for nano tanks

 

[JoJosReef]

Is it filter floss or the pre-packaged filtration that it comes with?

Roll of floss with 2 densities, cut to size of media basket. Nothing stock (the IM stock filter material are extra large cotton balls...bit awkward).

 

[JoJosReef]

Hey maybe give Aquaforest Pro Bio F a try...it's probiotic bacteria with a carbon source together and should bring down your nitrates and phosphates...it's designed for nano tanks

I'll take a look! I was hesitant about adding bacteria because I don't want anything outcompeting my special gulf rock/sand microbiome, even though I'm sure there's loads of changes anyway going from ocean to 10g tank!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'll take a look! I was hesitant about adding bacteria because I don't want anything outcompeting my special gulf rock/sand microbiome, even though I'm sure there's loads of changes anyway going from ocean to 10g tank!

I don't think you need to worry about that...I could be mistaken but I don't believe it would change your microbiome much unless you way overdosed it...it's a daily additive...just a little tiny scoop of the stuff a day.

 

[Nano sapiens]

Hi all, first time posting in the chem forum (Hi Randy! Big fan!).

I have an office IM Nuvo 10g tank set up in Jan 2022, with 100% gulf premium nano rocks and sand from TBS. Has been running with LFS-bought RSCP salt, but parameters are a bit lower due to LFS inconsistencies (Alk around 8.5-9). So I am switching to office RODI + HW salt soon.

Nitrates have been running high (10-20ppm, Red Sea), phosphates higher (0.75-1ppm, Salifert). I have a crocea clam coming this week and want to improve parameters a bit, primarily lower PO4.

Stocking: porcelain crabs, pom pom crab, sexy shrimp // LPS coral, RFAs, pavona, zoas, favia // macroalgae--> tailspot blenny and firefish coming Wedn.

I've been feeding heavy for filter feeders (porcelain crabs, sponges, fan worms) with:
RuSalty Oyster feast
RuSalty Naturose phyto
RuSalty coral ecstasy
RuSalty Zu Feast
RuSalty Ova Feast
RuSalty Mysis feast
Live phyto
Hikari frozen krill (target to crabs/nems)

1g WC every M-W-F.
Been trying to go natural with this tank, just relying on the live rock/sand.

Do I need to change strategies? Was avoiding additives like Microbacter7, but should I reconsider? Any other natural routes/additives that won't imbalance my biodiversity?

Thanks so much!

You have a similar situation to when I started my 12g nearly 14 years ago (LR & LS only). PO4/NO3 began to lower/stabilize as I gradually added more amd more coral, diligently removed algae and regularly vacuumed the substrate.

IME, reef aquariums require a good amount of time to 'find their groove' (mature/stabilize biologically)...and perhaps even longer before the aquarist gets a good handle on how his/her particular system functions/behaves.