john.m.cole3
cyclOps
I have this tank that has 4 holes drilled in the bottom, 2 per overflow stack. Could I put the full siphon in one stack and the partial siphon in the other?
Converting from Dual Durso to Herbie Method. Advice Needed
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Lets see if we can get you some answers
I converted my single durso tank to a herbie overflow about a month ago, its just amazing howmmuch quieter it is. Basically you change your return lines into emergency overflows and put a globe valve on your primary overflow....then pipe in a new return over the back of the tank. There are many many youtube videos explaining this
OP
OP
john.m.cole3
cyclOps
my hope was to use both return lines, then make the remaining 2 holes full and partial siphon. I was unsure if this was ok yo do considering the drain holes are on different corners of the tank
That could work but are you sure you don't want use a BeanAnimal setup for the extra control and redundancy? The Bean will use 3 of the 4 holes you have available. Although I have only done this with a single overflow box, I'd guess that you would put full siphon and open line in one box and the emergency overflow and return in the other one. But perhaps someone with more experience can weigh in here.
Bruce
Bruce
jgvergo
Valuable Member
I agree. When I saw there are 4 holes I immediately thought of Bean Animal. I highly recommend it. I'm pretty sure it will work as long as the flow rate into the overflow is greater than the flow rate from the return pump.
OP
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john.m.cole3
cyclOps
135 gallon and 1 inch pipe through out. I thought about bean animal but I don't want to lose a return line and I don't plan on drilling this 5/8 inch glass. CVould I just lower one of the dursos and put a gate valve on it?
You can do a modified bean, minus the dry pipe. That way the secondary drain will transition into full siphon if the water level starts to rise. It covers the siphon break tube and allows a siphon to form. Its basically what you were doing with a better secondary drain that is dynamic.
OP
OP
john.m.cole3
cyclOps
Would it work with having the drains in different overflow stacks?
or behind different weirs however you call it
Forget the bean. you could do a Herbie, but typically you want the emergency larger than the main siphon pipe. I have run them with the same size however.
ReeferBob
Valuable Member
You don't need an Emergency on a properly designed system. Bean is overkill for most people.
The point of the emergency drain is it is dry 100% of the time. It cannot have slime or snails or anything else in it so it is always 100% clean. If the main drain clogs on a 2 drain system you just put more water through the secondary drain that is a wet drain at all times. Because of this, you cannot guarantee it can always carry 100% of the water when asked to.
It is usually only carrying 5% or so of the water giving it plenty of opportunity to get mostly clogged and still carry the 5% just fine. Its only when you need it to carry 100% of the water that you have a catastrophic failure. There is a very legitimate reason that all users can benefit for the third dry pipe.
It is usually only carrying 5% or so of the water giving it plenty of opportunity to get mostly clogged and still carry the 5% just fine. Its only when you need it to carry 100% of the water that you have a catastrophic failure. There is a very legitimate reason that all users can benefit for the third dry pipe.
ReeferBob
Valuable Member
I think you are not understanding what Herbie style plumbing accomplishes. It does not have an emergency drain. A "wet" drain as you call it - more commonly referred to as an "open channel" - exists to enable the full siphon drain to balance out. It would be nearly impossible (actually is impossible in practice) to have a full siphon running without a little water trickling over into the open channel. That is its intended purpose and not as a backup that will take the volume of the full-siphon should the need arise. In the unlikely scenario that all of your drains become clogged at once, you should not flood no matter what system you run (Bean, Herbie, Durso).
A Bean is overkill but it does have a purpose. In the video you can see the other tank has a Bean style drain. The purpose is to keep your system running "normally" should you experience a clog in your other drains. It is nice to have this fail-safe but it should not be used for flood-avoidance as that is just bad system design. With the video I posted and using 2 overflows and 2 sets of Herbie drains, there is virtually no chance at all of all 4 drains clogging at the same time. If one side does, the system will become noisy but will not flood nor stop circulating. I'd argue that the noise (from your single working full-siphon drain not being able to keep up with the return water) is a good thing since it would alert you to a problem.
I absolutely do understand how a herbie works as bean is built on the same principle with the primary and secondary drains performing the same purpose in both. The main is choked down with a valve on both until it goes full siphon and the secondary drain carries the small amount of trickle down the inside of the pipe. In both designs if the main drain clogs the secondary takes the burden and must go from a trickle to carrying 100% of the water.
Also, in both designs the secondary drain is always carrying a trickle and therefore always runs the chance of having buildup inside of the pipe since it is always exposed to aquarium water and organics. If the primary drain clogs and you have to now carry 100% of the water in the secondary, what if you have too much buildup in the secondary drain to carry this water from the trickle building up organics? With a herbie, you flood. Now you mentioned having double herbies which sure is a viable solution, but uses 4 pipes when a bean uses 3 so it doesnt make sense to do a dual herbie.
So replay that scenario with a bean. The 5% trickle down secondary at all times builds up organics over time and you dont know. Suddenly a snail goes down primary and it clogs instantly. Now secondary must burden 100% of the flow, but wait its slimy and gross and you never knew since most of the time it only carries a trickle so it cant handle the flow.
The water level in the dt starts to rise and it covers the siphon break and the secondary suddenly goes full siphon and can pull way more water than the secondary on a herbie ever could as full siphons are crazy flow. But what if it is not enough still and even in full siphon the secondary just cant take the flow due to buildup from always being wet.
Once again, bean does something no other drain can. It has a third drain that is always dry and is guaranteed to have 0 buildup since it never sees water. It takes everything you can throw at it and keeps on going. This is the exact reason bean was invented. To make up for limitations in herbie. It is essential an improved herbie. There is no "proper design" of a herbie that can prevent buildup in the secondary, always wet from a trickle, drain.
You have to really uderstand not just how a bean works, but also why was it designed that way in the first place. It is considered the best drain method now days if you can support a 3 pipe configuration. If 2 is all you can support, then you downgrade to a herbie and keep your drains clean to avoid a disaster that is near impossible with a bean.
ReeferBob
Valuable Member
We're talking about this example, in this thread, which has 4 holes via 2 weirs.
Your understanding of Herbie is not correct. Herbie open channel drains are not designed to go full siphon in the event of a main drain clog, Bean's open channels are. This is accomplished by a small tube coming out of the closed top and just above the water line to enable them to go full siphon as the water level rises. That is the main difference. A Herbie open channel for the most part will simply go into "flush" mode which is what a Durso drain does when the water flow is too fast (actually my Herbie open channels will go full siphon and since unrestricted, they actually can carry the load since my main larger drains are cranked back to compensate for my return pump not being able to supply enough water to them when fully open, but I digress). Doing dual Herbies when you have 2 overflows is the best way to go. Unless you drill more holes, it isn't possible to do a Bean. Bean is great if you plan it from the beginning and drill 3 holes for the setup. No commercial reef ready tank comes configured for a Bean system. As I stated, 1 of my tanks does have a Bean overflow as I plumbed it for that. For a pre-drilled "reef ready" tank there is no effective way to do a Bean unless you abandon the pre-drilled plumbing (remove the weirs, cover the holes) and drill new holes. For these systems, a full-siphon Herbie drain system is the best option.
So what? Again, your tank should have flood control by good design, not by redundant plumbing.
Your understanding of Herbie is not correct. Herbie open channel drains are not designed to go full siphon in the event of a main drain clog, Bean's open channels are. This is accomplished by a small tube coming out of the closed top and just above the water line to enable them to go full siphon as the water level rises. That is the main difference. A Herbie open channel for the most part will simply go into "flush" mode which is what a Durso drain does when the water flow is too fast (actually my Herbie open channels will go full siphon and since unrestricted, they actually can carry the load since my main larger drains are cranked back to compensate for my return pump not being able to supply enough water to them when fully open, but I digress). Doing dual Herbies when you have 2 overflows is the best way to go. Unless you drill more holes, it isn't possible to do a Bean. Bean is great if you plan it from the beginning and drill 3 holes for the setup. No commercial reef ready tank comes configured for a Bean system. As I stated, 1 of my tanks does have a Bean overflow as I plumbed it for that. For a pre-drilled "reef ready" tank there is no effective way to do a Bean unless you abandon the pre-drilled plumbing (remove the weirs, cover the holes) and drill new holes. For these systems, a full-siphon Herbie drain system is the best option.
So what? Again, your tank should have flood control by good design, not by redundant plumbing.
If the OP is set on a herbie, it will work and is an improvement on the original setup either way. I personally would have used the 4th hole as the return and gone bean vs a herbie, but there is obviously more than one way to do it. And yes, you always design your sump last chamber to avoid an actual flood no matter what design you go with. Just account for the failure case now being running your return chamber dry with a way to turn the pump off automatically if that happens. The last thing you want is for your ato to dump in a bunch of freshwater or even worse, kalk and freshwater and nuke the tank.
And I never said this anywhere. I think youre misreading my posts. Ive used both and run a bean currently.
And I never said this anywhere. I think youre misreading my posts. Ive used both and run a bean currently.
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