Copper QT with Oodonex possible overdose?

[Antaguana]

I am in Australia, we can't get the recommended copper power, copper safe etc. So I am using what I can get, Oodonex by Aquasonic as a copper treatment in quarantine for new fish (2 percula clownfish)
Active ingredients are 5.4mg/ml Copper as copper sulphate and 0.24mg/ml of aminacrine hydrochloride.

The instructions say to dose 5mL per 40L each day for 4 days then test the copper level and maintain above 0.25ppm and maintain pH about 7.8 for 14 days.

I have 33L quarantine tank so I have dosed 33x5/40= 4.125ml per day for 4 days.
Tested the copper using Hanna Copper HP (ppm) and it reads 0.48. I retested and got 0.51ppm

I called the LFS and they said it will be fine for fish only (except wrasse as they are more susceptible to copper) as long as it is not more than 1ppm.
Monitor the fish if they look ok don't worry, if they are looking bad do a 50% water change to bring it down to 0.25.

The fish are looking fine, swimming fine, and eating (I read that side effects can be lethargy and poor appetite)

To put it bluntly, I am once again perplexed at how the instructions can be so poor and the response from people who should care is so nonchalant.
Can someone please explain:
What test target should I be aiming for (seems different for every copper product) and recommend if I should be concerned or not with the 0.5ppm? If I should take action?
Should I dose the same or less with future QTs?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I am in Australia, we can't get the recommended copper power, copper safe etc. So I am using what I can get, Oodonex by Aquasonic as a copper treatment in quarantine for new fish (2 percula clownfish)
Active ingredients are 5.4mg/ml Copper as copper sulphate and 0.24mg/ml of aminacrine hydrochloride.

The instructions say to dose 5mL per 40L each day for 4 days then test the copper level and maintain above 0.25ppm and maintain pH about 7.8 for 14 days.

I have 33L quarantine tank so I have dosed 33x5/40= 4.125ml per day for 4 days.
Tested the copper using Hanna Copper HP (ppm) and it reads 0.48. I retested and got 0.51ppm

I called the LFS and they said it will be fine for fish only (except wrasse as they are more susceptible to copper) as long as it is not more than 1ppm.
Monitor the fish if they look ok don't worry, if they are looking bad do a 50% water change to bring it down to 0.25.

The fish are looking fine, swimming fine, and eating (I read that side effects can be lethargy and poor appetite)

To put it bluntly, I am once again perplexed at how the instructions can be so poor and the response from people who should care is so nonchalant.
Can someone please explain:
What test target should I be aiming for (seems different for every copper product) and recommend if I should be concerned or not with the 0.5ppm? If I should take action?
Should I dose the same or less with future QTs?

.5 is the max recommended and the wrasse should tolerate up to .4 but either change water to reduce or observe wrasse for any signs of stress from meds. Oodinex is copper sulfate and Australia should have copper power and cupramine

 

[Antaguana]

@Randy Holmes-Farley perhaps this is a question for you.

I note it has 0.24mg/ml of aminacrine hydrochloride and Seachem say the advantage of Cupramine is "It is buffered and amine-complexed and has all the advantages of both copper sulfate and chelated copper, but none of the disadvantages"

Is the aminacrine hydrochloride in Oodonex making it "buffered and amine-complexed" like Cupramine?
If so I am a lot less concerned since Cupramine states their treatment is "final copper concentration is 0.5 mg/L" in salt water (0.25 in freshwater). However that doesn't explain why Aquasonic would put 0.25ppm on their marine product.

 

[Antaguana]

.5 is the max recommended and the wrasse should tolerate up to .4 but either change water to reduce or observe wrasse for any signs of stress from meds. Oodinex is copper sulfate and Australia should have copper power and cupramine

Thanks for the info.

Please note this is Oodonex by aquasonic not Oodinex by eSHa. Just to be really confusing.

It seems Cupramine might be available in some places in Australia (strange my LFS doesn't have it since they do have other seachem products). I have not seen Copper Power anywhere in Australia except Ebay / Amazon.

It is pretty common for things everyone uses in the USA to not ba available at all in Aus. We also can't get Prasipro from what I can tell. Even things like yellow tangs are not available in Aus or they are $1200-$1600 AUD

Oh and our inverts options are very limited as we can not import them.. so no emerald crabs for example.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for the info.

Please note this is Oodonex by aquasonic not Oodinex by eSHa. Just to be really confusing.

It seems Cupramine might be available in some places in Australia (strange my LFS doesn't have it since they do have other seachem products). I have not seen Copper Power anywhere in Australia except Ebay / Amazon.

It is pretty common for things everyone uses in the USA to not ba available at all in Aus. We also can't get Prasipro from what I can tell. Even things like yellow tangs are not available in Aus or they are $1200-$1600 AUD

Oh and our inverts options are very limited as we can not import them.. so no emerald crabs for example.

My guess was Aquasonic brand

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I am in Australia, we can't get the recommended copper power, copper safe etc. So I am using what I can get, Oodonex by Aquasonic as a copper treatment in quarantine for new fish (2 percula clownfish)
Active ingredients are 5.4mg/ml Copper as copper sulphate and 0.24mg/ml of aminacrine hydrochloride.

The instructions say to dose 5mL per 40L each day for 4 days then test the copper level and maintain above 0.25ppm and maintain pH about 7.8 for 14 days.

I have 33L quarantine tank so I have dosed 33x5/40= 4.125ml per day for 4 days.
Tested the copper using Hanna Copper HP (ppm) and it reads 0.48. I retested and got 0.51ppm

I called the LFS and they said it will be fine for fish only (except wrasse as they are more susceptible to copper) as long as it is not more than 1ppm.
Monitor the fish if they look ok don't worry, if they are looking bad do a 50% water change to bring it down to 0.25.

The fish are looking fine, swimming fine, and eating (I read that side effects can be lethargy and poor appetite)

To put it bluntly, I am once again perplexed at how the instructions can be so poor and the response from people who should care is so nonchalant.
Can someone please explain:
What test target should I be aiming for (seems different for every copper product) and recommend if I should be concerned or not with the 0.5ppm? If I should take action?
Should I dose the same or less with future QTs?

I took a deep dive into this product just now. Correct - it has a very similar name to Oodinex by Esha in Europe, but they are completely different products.

This product is apparently just an ionic copper solution bonded to an amine. Plain ionic copper should be dosed very carefully at 0.20 ppm with a range of 0.18 to 0.22 ppm. Cupramine has an amine added, and it is dosed at 0.45 to 0.60 ppm. I can't say if the amount of aminacrine in Oodonex is the same as Cupramine or not. That is then the issue - if it is identical to Cupramine, then your dose is fine (but their instructions are wrong). If it has less amine in it, then your dose is too high and their instructions are correct....no way to tell though!

Here is one clue: Cupramine is dosed at 0.25 ppm in FRESHWATER. Could Aquasonic be basing their dose on that?

I've had discussions with Hanna's tech department as to if their HR checker can be used for low level ionic copper testing, or if their LR checker needs to be used - and I cannot get a straight answer. You've seen one potential issue - your two tests varied by 0.03 ppm - that is close to the acceptable range for dosing ionic copper. However, the Hanna LR checker only says it can be used for "freshwater".

 

[Antaguana]

@Jay Hemdal

Thanks for looking into it. It will be interesting to hear what Hanna say. Their spec sheet specifies the range of 0-5ppm with resolution 0.01 and accuracy of ±0.05 ppm ±5% of reading. So it should work I guess it is not ideal for 0.25ppm as 0.05 is a 20% of 0.25 ie it could give a reading from 0.19 to 0.31ppm but still should be closer than 0.5ppm.

Yeah I see seachem recommend 0.5ppm but say 0.2 is effective and 0.8 is safe for their cupramine product.

Their directions are wrong either way. As when you follow the dose instructions they give you get 2x (at least by my test) the concentration they state. I am guessing that they had 0.25 on the freshwater product and copy pasted for marine, changed the dose instructions but forgot to adjust the concentration. Or perhaps what they mean is dose like this, (you will get 0.5ppm but we are not saying that) test and make sure it remains above 0.25. but in this case the wording is very misleading.

I would be very keen to see a response from the manufacturer. I will contact them and try to get one.

 

[Antaguana]

Instructions from bottle.

So far the fish are acting normal (well as normal as a percula clownfish ever does, they are hanging out at the filter).

 

[Antaguana]

I emailed naturesbest (the name of the company / address on the bottle and I guess the company that runs the aquasonic brand name). I asked for information on the dosing instructions, explained my calculations and asked if they could explain why my reading was 2x expected. Asked if 0.5 would be harmful and asked How does their product compare to seachem cupramine ? I notice they say 0.5ppm for marine but only 0.25 for freshwater treatment. And claim it is effective from 0.2ppm and safe to 0.8ppm in marine environment. Due to the copper in their product being "buffered and amine-complexed". Is the 0.24mg of aminacrine hydrochloride in the oodonex giving a similar result?

They forwarded my email to Mark at aquariumindustries.com.au (who seem to be Australia's largest aquarium fish wholesaler) it seems odd that the manufacturer/supplier is forwarding my technical question to ... what, one of their large customers? I guess they might have more experience using the product, although they sell blueplanet fish medication not aquasonic / naturesbest so perhaps they don't use it at all? smells a bit fishy.

Anyway this is their full reply (I will let you judge how helpful it is)

Hi Phillip
Thanks for contacting us in relation to the Oodonex.
Therapeutic level is 0.2-0.3 ideally 0.25.
0.5 is toxic to everything.
Regards,
Mark King

The good news is, the fish are still alive and seem to be fine, they are still acting normally and eating well.
So something is wrong, if 0.5 is indeed toxic to everything I must have a testing error (or some very tough little fish).

Seems very odd I seem to be the first to come across this...

Does anyone know if I should wait a certain time after dosing before testing? I waited ~ 5 minutes for the filter pump to mix the water (it's only 33L) and I took 2ml from 5 locations around the tank (all near the top as the pipette is limited in length) to make up the 10ml sample for the hanna checker.

@Jay Hemdal
Did Hanna get back to you?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hanna kept giving me the same unclear answers. Tech support with many companies are just salespeople reading spec sheets….

 

[Antaguana]

It is really disappointing how little companies care about their product or customers.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It is really disappointing how little companies care about their product or customers.

Yes - few of these companies even have research and development staff, they just find formulations in some paper and just start making medications - and they copy from each other all the time.

It was better back in the 1980’s, there were actual researchers working for aquarium companies.

 

[Antaguana]

Yes - few of these companies even have research and development staff, they just find formulations in some paper and just start making medications - and they copy from each other all the time.

It was better back in the 1980’s, there were actual researchers working for aquarium companies.

That is horrific and unsustainable.

Do you have any idea why? Is it the usual combination of increasing cost of doing a good job, increasing desire from consumers for the cheapest product, and decreasing respect for intellectual property?

I would certainly be willing to pay a reasonable premium to purchase a product from a supplier who is willing and able to stand by and support their product. Unfortunately I can't really even ask for people to recommend a brand that can offer this as we don't seem to have much choice in Australia (I guess this is another reason for the lack of support at least in AUS). Only option would be to find a reputable company and then petition the LFS / local wholesalers to stock them.

To be fair I found Hanna support where very responsive and helpful when I had an issue connecting to the Bluetooth on their master test kit. Replied in 24 hours. I certainly don't mind recommending them and have a lot more confidence in their tester than I do in the oodonex.

 

[Antaguana]

No one has been able to give me a clear answer if I should follow the 0.25ppm measurement or the 5ml per 4L for 4 days or some other amount.

Mostly the answer I get is, I'd go lower and do 0.25ppm as it will we safer. But I wonder if that will even do anything? With copper power people make a big deal that if it falls below thereputic levels it is a waste of time.

I got a new foxface rabbit fish and a WA ocellated glider goby today so not sure what level to treat them at. The LFS say they keep all their fish in quarantine and monitor them for 2 weeks before they go out for sale and only medicate if they see issues as it is unneeded stress otherwise.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I am in Australia, we can't get the recommended copper power, copper safe etc. So I am using what I can get, Oodonex by Aquasonic as a copper treatment in quarantine for new fish (2 percula clownfish)
Active ingredients are 5.4mg/ml Copper as copper sulphate and 0.24mg/ml of aminacrine hydrochloride.

The instructions say to dose 5mL per 40L each day for 4 days then test the copper level and maintain above 0.25ppm and maintain pH about 7.8 for 14 days.

I have 33L quarantine tank so I have dosed 33x5/40= 4.125ml per day for 4 days.
Tested the copper using Hanna Copper HP (ppm) and it reads 0.48. I retested and got 0.51ppm

I called the LFS and they said it will be fine for fish only (except wrasse as they are more susceptible to copper) as long as it is not more than 1ppm.
Monitor the fish if they look ok don't worry, if they are looking bad do a 50% water change to bring it down to 0.25.

The fish are looking fine, swimming fine, and eating (I read that side effects can be lethargy and poor appetite)

To put it bluntly, I am once again perplexed at how the instructions can be so poor and the response from people who should care is so nonchalant.
Can someone please explain:
What test target should I be aiming for (seems different for every copper product) and recommend if I should be concerned or not with the 0.5ppm? If I should take action?
Should I dose the same or less with future QTs?

The Hanna Copper Checker is not suitable for measuring copper under 1ppm
There are many threads discussing this shortfall with the device.

I'd suggest using the Seachem Copper test.

FYI, you can obtain Copper Power from Amazon US. Not much help for now I know but obtaining one for next time would be a good plan.

 

[Antaguana]

I have just been thinking about this again.

The bottle says it is 5.4mg / ml of copper as copper sulphate. (+ the amine but thats shouldn't matter for this calculation).

It says to dose 5ml per 40L each day for 4 days. And then test the copper level should be 0.25ppm

5.4mg/ml X 4 days X 5ml = 108mg of copper (as copper sulphate) in 40 L = 2.7mg/L
If I am correct that is 2.7ppm.

Can someone confirm I have got that maths right and that this is a valid way to calculate the resultant copper concentration (it's been a while since I did chemistry)

That raises a few other questions.
How could the instructions be out by a factor of 10? Thats bad, surely I wouldn't be the first to notice that...
How were the clowns fine with it?
Why did the Hanna read 0.5? This makes even less sense now as 2.7ppm is well within its accurate range.

 

[mikeproux]

I emailed naturesbest (the name of the company / address on the bottle and I guess the company that runs the aquasonic brand name). I asked for information on the dosing instructions, explained my calculations and asked if they could explain why my reading was 2x expected. Asked if 0.5 would be harmful and asked How does their product compare to seachem cupramine ? I notice they say 0.5ppm for marine but only 0.25 for freshwater treatment. And claim it is effective from 0.2ppm and safe to 0.8ppm in marine environment. Due to the copper in their product being "buffered and amine-complexed". Is the 0.24mg of aminacrine hydrochloride in the oodonex giving a similar result?

They forwarded my email to Mark at aquariumindustries.com.au (who seem to be Australia's largest aquarium fish wholesaler) it seems odd that the manufacturer/supplier is forwarding my technical question to ... what, one of their large customers? I guess they might have more experience using the product, although they sell blueplanet fish medication not aquasonic / naturesbest so perhaps they don't use it at all? smells a bit fishy.

Anyway this is their full reply (I will let you judge how helpful it is)


The good news is, the fish are still alive and seem to be fine, they are still acting normally and eating well.
So something is wrong, if 0.5 is indeed toxic to everything I must have a testing error (or some very tough little fish).

Seems very odd I seem to be the first to come across this...

Does anyone know if I should wait a certain time after dosing before testing? I waited ~ 5 minutes for the filter pump to mix the water (it's only 33L) and I took 2ml from 5 locations around the tank (all near the top as the pipette is limited in length) to make up the 10ml sample for the hanna checker.

@Jay Hemdal
Did Hanna get back to you?

Hi From Perth,
I had exactly the same problem with this product. Label says to dose 5ml for 40 litres. My hospital tank was 112 litres so I put in 14ml. The fish died right in front of me the next morning and large brown patches had developed on his body which looked like haemorrhaging from inside (very sad). Checked the copper and it seemed to read 0.5 but was probably a lot higher (not a good kit). Next day I had to treat another fish. Did complete water change and put 5ml in 120litres. Went and bought a Hanna test kit and measured 0.48 after which I did 30% water change and it now reads 0.28ppm. So the dosage on their product appears to be way out. Very concerned - wonder how many other fish were killed this way

 

[gbroadbridge]

Hi From Perth,
I had exactly the same problem with this product. Label says to dose 5ml for 40 litres. My hospital tank was 112 litres so I put in 14ml. The fish died right in front of me the next morning and large brown patches had developed on his body which looked like haemorrhaging from inside (very sad). Checked the copper and it seemed to read 0.5 but was probably a lot higher (not a good kit). Next day I had to treat another fish. Did complete water change and put 5ml in 120litres. Went and bought a Hanna test kit and measured 0.48 after which I did 30% water change and it now reads 0.28ppm. So the dosage on their product appears to be way out. Very concerned - wonder how many other fish were killed this way

Just to state it again. DO NOT use the Hanna Copper Checker for Ionic Copper.

The Checker DOES NOT work accurately under 1ppm.
Use a Seachem or other test.

The Hanna is fine for products like Coppersafe and Copperpower which you can purchase from Amazon U.S.

 

[Antaguana]

Just to state it again. DO NOT use the Hanna Copper Checker for Ionic Copper.

The Checker DOES NOT work accurately under 1ppm.
Use a Seachem or other test.

The Hanna is fine for products like Coppersafe and Copperpower which you can purchase from Amazon U.S.

The Hanna does seem to change the expected amount when the water is changed. For example I had it measure 0.6ppm and did 1/3 water change and the concentration dropped 1/3 to 0.4ppm. So it might be incorrect, but it does seem to change in a proportional manner. (At least on my very very small sample size). Seems @mikeproux has had a similar experience. At this point I trust the Hanna more than the oodonex.

The Hanna website says from 0-5ppm it is +-0.05 ppm. It would be good if we can get them to adjust that to say the accurate test range is 1 to 5ppm.

I would love to see a proper test with lab grade standards and multiple tests at various concentrations. So we can get error bars and linearity over the 0-5ppm range. I'm sure Hanna would have that in their engineering division but perhaps they don't release it? Do you have any links to Hanna (or other) tests?

Hi From Perth,
I had exactly the same problem with this product. Label says to dose 5ml for 40 litres. My hospital tank was 112 litres so I put in 14ml. The fish died right in front of me the next morning and large brown patches had developed on his body which looked like haemorrhaging from inside (very sad). Checked the copper and it seemed to read 0.5 but was probably a lot higher (not a good kit). Next day I had to treat another fish. Did complete water change and put 5ml in 120litres. Went and bought a Hanna test kit and measured 0.48 after which I did 30% water change and it now reads 0.28ppm. So the dosage on their product appears to be way out. Very concerned - wonder how many other fish were killed this way

Hello also from Perth (southern suburbs).
That is so sad. Yeah there is definitely something wrong (or something more complicated going on.) I am really annoyed at the lack of response or care from the manufacturer. Hearing you had the same issue and you lost fish makes me think it might be worth mentioning it to consumer protection. Australian law says product must be fit for purpose and this certainly isn't.

They say keep the pH above 7.8. does anyone know why? Is it something like low pH dissociates more copper from the sulphate / amines?? (Similar to the ways pH influences ammonia / ammonium ratio?)

On my second QT (for the fox face and WA osscellated glider Goby). The foxface was looking really unwell (it is good at looking dead, going awful brown colour and laying on its side motionless, so I was not super concerned to start with but I watched it for 10mins and it looked like it was having trouble swimming, couldnt trun well was bumping into things didn't swim away when the Goby freaked out when I bumped the hide etc) after the 3rd of the 4 doses. So I checked the copper and it read 0.6ppm (so 4x 4.1ml the first time gave 0.5ppm with pH 8.5 but second time 3x4.1ml gave 0.6ppm with pH of 8.2.) I would love to understand how this happened

Of course could just be measurement errors that coincidently happen to look like what I would expect
When I did 30% water change the measurement dropped from 0.6 to 0.40ppm so it does seem like the Hanna is at least varying and somewhat proportional. Within 30mins of reducing to 0.4ppm the foxface was swimming normally, by morning it was looking fine back to full colour and happily swimming about and eating. So whatever the actual copper concentration is, it seems (from this super small sample of 1) that a Hanna reading of 0.6ppm is bad but 0.4-0.5ppm and the (4) fish I have tested are fine.

We have ordered copper power from amazon USA. Was about $90AUD for 16oz (free shipping with prime) Seems like it could take a while to arrive.

 

[mikeproux]

I will be taking this issue further. It was a terrible easter weekend for us - we lost our fish which we had grown very attached to. By the way I tested 3 different copper tests (Hannah, Salifert and Seachem) and got similar results with all. I believe Oodonex to be dangerous and the dosage on the label to be completely incorrect.