Coral Holibiont

[Subsea]

@Beuchat

THE CHEMICAL INTERACTION BETWEEN SPECIES AS AN HYPOTHESIS FOR A MATURE TANK

Algae, unavoidable companions. Algae are undoubtedly one of the inhabitants of a reef tank that cause the biggest headaches to hobbyists. In a world idealized by aesthetics, we might wish that these living beings were out of our system...

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you for your article. Between research papers that highlight the Coral Holibiont & Old Tank Syndrome, you have a complex field of endeavor. A few years ago, when speaking with @Randy Holmes-Farley about biochemistry in marine aquarium , he said “we sent a man to the moon 50 years ago, yet we can’t cure cancer today”.

Martin Moe, micro biologist said it this way 60 years ago:

”Reef Chemistry is not rocket science, It’s more complicated.

Check out Ken Felderman articles on Advanced Aquaria

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration

What are the bacteria populations in the water column of reef tanks, and how does that value compare with bacterial counts in authentic reef water? Does carbon dosing indeed increase water column bacteria populations (i.e., is growth carbon limited)? Does mechanical filtration (protein skimming...

reefs.com

 

[Subsea]

As I was rereading the conclusion section of Felderman research paper; one charactetistic of a mature reef is to have bacteria consumers.

“On the other hand, our studies have shown that bacterial growth appears to be carbon limited in reef aquarium water. However, there is a demonstrable difference between reef tank water in an active reef tank, and reef tank water removed from the tank. In the latter case, bacteria consumers are largely absent, and so fueling bacteria growth via carbon addition translates to rapid and large increases in bacteria population. In an active reef tank, however, this population increase is not manifest, presumably because active predation keeps the overall level in check. Thus, the highly dynamic nature of bacteria populations in the water column of reef aquaria is highlighted by these studies. From a different perspective, the bacteria population in a reef tank seems to act as a buffer to help dissipate the otherwise potentially serious negative consequences of (inadvertent?) tank pollution via rapid carbon addition, at least perhaps up to a saturation point.“

 

[Subsea]

Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part II

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Ken and Kelly continue to report on their work on Total Organic Carbon and how it relates to the reef aquarium.

reefs.com

To further understand the biochemistry of the Coral Holibiont requires an understanding of physics, chemistry, micro biology.

When Felderman said that photosynthesis was the combining of the inorganic & the organic world, he got my attention.

Conclusions​

Coral reefs have been characterized as oases of biological productivity in a marine desert (Capone, 1992). The surrounding oligotrophic (= nutrient depleted) waters provide little sustenance to the reef biota. As a consequence, complex nutrient recycling webs have evolved on reefs to retain and reutilize essential elements like nitrogen and carbon. The carbon cycle on reefs is multifaceted and is beginning to be unraveled. Reliable measurements of dissolved organic carbon (DOC) levels are critical for this goal, and the introduction of the Shimadzu TOC Analyzer represents an unequivocal leap forward in research capability. On thriving reefs, most carbon input originates with atmospheric CO2, which is “fixed” via photosynthesis first into carbohydrates, and then into a multitude of other organic molecules. Much of this carbon, which is generated by the zooxanthellae in corals, is reemitted as coral mucus. This coral contribution significantly enriches the pool of DOC.
This DOC is prime food for a large variety of reef microbiota, including bacteria, both in the water column and in the corals themselves, and microplankton, etc. Finally, these microflora and microfauna serve as food for a variety of filter feeders, including, again, the corals. Thus, the interdependency of reef organisms, both large and small, is revealed as the carbon-based nutrients are recycled. The surrounding oligotrophic ocean serves as a buffer which can absorb excess nutrients that might otherwise prove harmful to reef inhabitants and modulate the levels of dissolved species by import and export, depending on relative (reef vs. open ocean) concentrations. Our captive reefs fall far short of this nutrient commerce model; we have, of course, no open ocean buffer to dilute away waste and so we rely on water changes to perform this vital function, and it remains unclear whether our aquaria contain all of the components, in appropriate proportions, of authentic reefs necessary to promote efficient nutrient recycling. Nevertheless, what we do seems to work, at least most of the time. But, what happens when things go wrong? Circumstantial evidence from Rohwer’s studies implicates DOC imbalances in coral mortality, with runaway bacterial growth as a likely mediating culprit. Can these observations inform aquarists, and is there a response that might ameliorate the problem? Certainly the first step is to establish a baseline of TOC ( DOC) levels in healthy reef aquaria under different husbandry protocols. In this article, data has been presented that accomplishes this goal, and further, validates these TOC numbers by comparison to TOC/DOC levels on healthy reefs around the world. In addition, the surprisingly minimal impact of protein skimming on TOC levels was revealed. On this point, it is apparent that if TOC levels can be monitored to assay the effects of one skimmer (the H&S A200 in this case), then they can be monitored to measure the impact of different types of skimmers operating on an experimental tank. In addition, these types of experiments also can be used to probe more directly and quantitatively the TOC removal capabilities of Granular Activated Carbon (GAC) that was hinted at in the tank #2 vs. tank #3 comparison. These types of experiments might allow, for the first time, a quantitative evaluation of skimmer and, independently, GAC performance which is divorced from the hype and misinformation that seems to surround these areas of marine aquarium maintenance/equipment. These experiments are ongoing and results will be reported in due course.

Finally, the goal of identifying approaches to halt incidents of coral mortality in reef tanks may benefit from data collection from “sick” tanks rather than the healthy aquaria examined in this study. If tanks undergoing coral crashes have an unusually high (or low) amount of TOC in the water but otherwise have acceptable water parameters, then a new and otherwise unappreciated villain will be in hand. Under these circumstances, what can the aquarist do? One experiment described by Ferrier-Pagès on Galaxea provides food for thought. Specimens of this coral were treated with the combined antibiotics penicillin, streptomycin, and amphotericin; subsequent bacterial uptake of DOC, which Rohwer identified as a mechanism for coral mortality when occurring in excess, ceased.

 

[jda]

IMO, too much emphasis is put on bacteria as tanks mature. In the beginning, you need and want bacteria but as tanks get more and more corals, algae, micro critters who can use and process fish waste directly for the benefit of themselves and the whole ecosystem, bacteria fall by the wayside still existing but performing a less important function. What was once a danger is now a savior (ammonia). I think that many researchers miss this. Most hobbyists do.

Regarding DOC/sugars, the best way to get them is through zoox, as explained... yet people try and cut the light quality and quantity in their tanks for a myriad of reasons. You can make corals look very good and also have them producing lots of sugars for your tank if you are good at your craft. This bunk that somehow corals do best in only blue light is a disaster over time and was based in only one small micro fact ignoring many others - akin to simple sugars are great while vigorously exercising so I am going to eat simple sugars all of the time.

For me, the largest problem with encouraging a holobiont is that people only want to focus on what they can see on test kits or get immediate results from. This leads to wanting to add waste products not knowing what they actually do - no3 and po4 are waste products. They go to chemicals that leave a void in the ecosystem chain (like @Beuchat explained) and cause long term damage - often exacerbated by bogus manufacturer claims and the blind leading the blind in online discussions.

What people need to focus on is really complex, but if you suggest a). studying real sources, learning from really good hobbyists, having patience, building for the future and learning some biology and chemistry vs b). watching a BRS video, getting a bunch of test kits and dosing XYZ because ReefBro123 online told you to do something.... most people will take B. However, I do appreciate all of the things that experienced hobbyists, researchers, etc. write since I want to be in A.

 

[Subsea]

Interesting comment on no3/po4 being waste products. I dose nh4.

Thank you for the blue light comment. Windex is not my favorite color.

The comment on DOC/sugars is more complex:

Rohwer research on coral & algae exudates, identifies coral exudates as mostly lipids & proteins and algae exudates as mostly carbohydrates/glucose/sugar.

 

[jda]

Corals might release lipids and proteins (slime coat) but their zoox make sugars. You are not making any lipids and proteins without the energy/sugar from the zoox. The host just uses the sugars. Hosts can do other things like recycle building blocks, capture/make polyphosphates to store and use later and a myriad of other complex things.

Also, what make this SOOOO hard is that people read studies, papers, posts, etc. and do not understand or mistake different "corals." To most researchers, corals are actual coral - true coral as defined by science that leave skeletons... stonies. Softies are what they are - colonial anemones (Z&P), anenomes, etc. Most reefers thing of coral as all of this, but also NPS, gargonians and anything else that they paid for at the LFS. Most of what hobbyists keep in their tanks are not actual corals in most of the publications that they might read.

 

[Subsea]

“For me, the largest problem with encouraging a holobiont is that people only want to focus on what they can see on test kits or get immediate results from“

As I understand this, the science is not wrong about how ecosystems work, it’s the mind set of the culture that wants instant gratification.

Just call me old school. I want to know why it works.

 

[jda]

“For me, the largest problem with encouraging a holobiont is that people only want to focus on what they can see on test kits or get immediate results from“

As I understand this, the science is not wrong about how ecosystems work, it’s the mind set of the culture that wants instant gratification.

They also might not understand and trust too much. Some of it is instant gratification, some is laziness and some is also that people who are honestly trying to help might just be doing the wrong things, and it propagates. Some have to quantify mostly out of doubt, so a number on a test kit is absolute and what their eyes and other senses tell them about what is in their tank is forsaken - you have seen folks get crushed when they find out that test kits of ICP are really not all that great, right?

In the example of adding the algaecide which makes a huge hole in the ecosystem, some posters and internet folks mean well because the algaecide worked for them, but they are just a few weeks away from it and have not experienced the full impact yet. Sure, there are folks who cautioned not to take this approach, but who knows how many heed the advice - many of those that did likely disappear into nevermind because they did not come back and post about the issues in a month or two.

 

[jda]

I will also say that most science is not wrong about how ecosystems work, but most of the science is not from our ecosystems of having small, closed boxes. You usually have to study a lot and look for common things between studies that work in all ecosystems and then see if this works out with all of the experiences and anecdotes from hobbyists and professionals who keep tanks in captivity.

The really smart folks that I like to read know how to take the academic and mostly make it work in aquaria too. The most basic example of this is all of the people who will tell you that despite all of the research that high no3 and po4 increase algae growth in the ocean, no algae is limited at all in our tanks (also explained by Beuchat) and that lowering po4 and no3 will not help your algae problem - the masses disagree and some will even cite some of these studies not knowing the ecosystem differences.

It is hard to read, but Wet Web Media had a bunch of these folks. Some discount it since the forum is old (they are morons), but since biology and chemistry has not changed in our lifetimes, it still works. Anybody looking to get smarter should read some of that.

 

[jda]

Just call me old school. I want to know why it works.

I saw that you added this later... I would suggest that you view this as having an idea of how stuff works since nobody really focuses on our tanks as subjects of scrutiny. It is easier to change/adpat ideas. After some experience and application of your ideas, then you can know what works for you - which will also work for most people.

I don't like the cop-out that we see a lot in that "every tank is different." Sure, but they also share high 90% of the same things... so the root of what works in one mostly will work in others and we are left with fine tuning. For example, you don't need a skimmer to have a nice tank, but you need to do what the skimmer does to be successful - skimmer or otherwise, high 90% the same things are happening.

 

[Subsea]

“I saw that you added this later... I would suggest that you view this as having an idea of how stuff works since nobody really focuses on our tanks as subjects of scrutiny. It is easier to change/adpat ideas. After some experience and application of your ideas, then you can know what works for you - which will also work for most people.“

I take exception to “nobody really focuses on our tanks as subjects of scrutiny”. I know many reefers that do study on the science, including you & I.

For me, to see the sophistication of how nutrient pathways are interconnected & dependent of each other and how microbes crosstalk to enhance their environment is my ZEN.

Ken Feldman research was done in reef aquariums.

 

[Subsea]

“I will also say that most science is not wrong about how ecosystems work, but most of the science is not from our ecosystems of having small, closed boxes. You usually have to study a lot and look for common things between studies that work in all ecosystems and then see if this works out with all of the experiences and anecdotes from hobbyists and professionals who keep tanks in captivity.“

@jda
Ken Feldman research was done on reef aquariums.

 

[jda]

I know. So has Dr Joshi (sometimes with Ken), Dana Riddle, Dr Ron and some others. Some has held up well and other not so much.

 

[Subsea]

I know. So has Dr Joshi (sometimes with Ken), Dana Riddle, Dr Ron and some others. Some has held up well and other not so much.

I have read their articles and fortunately meet both Dana Riddle & Dr Joshua. You may have dated your age with knowledge of those scientist.

 

[jda]

Take a guess. I am not as old as you may think... less than 50. Got started early in the hobby by riding my bike to the fish store - brought home my first fish in my backpack (my dad would later drive me when I wanted something live after feeling so bad for that fish). This was early-mid 1990s when there was still publications with real authors and stuff. In college, I worked at a store and got to be friends with some of folks at the St. Louis Zoo through a local club with lots of speakers - the things that they had access to was amazing.. people, livestock, etc. I also bred freshwater fish and sold them in bulk to wholesalers - lots of authors used to work at wholesalers. I met Veron, Dr Ron, Fenner and a few others all at one event.

What I think gets lost of folks anymore is that if you attend shows, meet people, contact them directly with a phone call or email, they are usually pretty cool and will get back to you.

 

[Subsea]

Take a guess. I am not as old as you may think... less than 50. Got started early in the hobby by riding my bike to the fish store - brought home my first fish in my backpack (my dad would later drive me when I wanted something live after feeling so bad for that fish). This was early-mid 1990s when there was still publications with real authors and stuff. In college, I worked at a store and got to be friends with some of folks at the St. Louis Zoo through a local club with lots of speakers - the things that they had access to was amazing.. people, livestock, etc. I also bred freshwater fish and sold them in bulk to wholesalers - lots of authors used to work at wholesalers. I met Veron, Dr Ron, Fenner and a few others all at one event.

What I think gets lost of folks anymore is that if you attend shows, meet people, contact them directly with a phone call or email, they are usually pretty cool and will get back to you.

You & I have similar hero’s.

I started Reefing in September 1971. As best I know, the only person addicted more than me on this website is @Paul B. I am 6 months older than Paul, at 75 and he has been Reefing 6 months longer than me. Each of us had just left military service during Vietnam era. Paul was Air Calvary in the highlands of Vietnam. I was an Air Force crew chief on Puff the Magic Dragon in Cambodia. Reef aquariums were my Zen to forget the insanity of WAR.

 

[jda]

I still have all of Veron's books in mint condition. The stuff written in them is amazing. I did not realize that they were worth so much until I looked a few years ago! My parents would not buy me hobby stuff for holidays or birthday, but books were OK.

All of my TFH and other magazines got water damaged in a move, so I recycled those. Not all of them were great and while there was some good stuff, there was also some bad.

You can still find a lot of this online, but I doubt that many people care.

I got to thinking about the subject of learning, studying and all of that. Maybe it is just that most folks on the web only really care when it concerns them - like they don't want to know about how corals get nitrogen until they have to do something about it... or once they figure out that a YouTube video is wrong. This thread could just be a few of us for a long time... no questions or anything from others. However, I do know that people do read and stuff since I do get some PMs from time to time with tanks or some questions about this or that, so they don't have to post to learn.

 

[Subsea]

I still cherish Reef Aquarium series written by Julian Sprung & Charles Delbrick.

When John Tullock wrote the Natural Reef Aquarium, his book made sense to me:

Less technology / More biology

 

[Subsea]

 

[jda]

Abe makes awesome videos. He is usually balanced and combines the current trends, historical trends, research & science with a lot of experience. The few times that I might not totally agree, it is hard to argue with the process and logic. Then, the videos are well produced. There is one about trends and fads that made me literally laugh watching it.