Corals Keep Dying

[Wandering Albatross]

your tank is not matured yet. if your seeing dino and cyano that means there is not enough beneficial bacteria or microorganisms, corraline algae, etc to keep them at bay. run an icp. right after icp, do a water change. But some Dr.Tims or some other bacteria in there. turn lights way down. in your tank you could run 75-150 par and it would be just fine.

How can there not be enough bacteria at this point, at almost a year in? They have plenty of food, I've dosed multiple strains of bacteria multiple times trying to beat cyano/dinos already, tbs live rock for seeding in the fuge (which brought my aiptasia problem), and I have a 6"+ sandbed in several areas for the eels. The surface area is astronomical. What else should I be doing?

75-150, I thought coralline was a higher light species? Half of who I ask say it needs high par. Half of those people say it needs high flow, the others say sheltered areas.

 

[CHSUB]

How can there not be enough bacteria at this point, at almost a year in? They have plenty of food, I've dosed multiple strains of bacteria multiple times trying to beat cyano/dinos already, tbs live rock for seeding in the fuge (which brought my aiptasia problem), and I have a 6"+ sandbed in several areas for the eels. The surface area is astronomical. What else should I be doing?

75-150, I thought coralline was a higher light species? Half of who I ask say it needs high par. Half of those people say it needs high flow, the others say sheltered areas.

Yes very correct about bacteria. You need to use exceptional maintenance to keep the aquarium clean. Cleaning socks very often, blowing detritus, maintaining your protein skimmer, large consistent WC, manual removal of easily removed algae, cleaning pumps, vacuum the sand to remove excess waste, etc….

I have fragged torch corals that both grow in intense light and the shade, of course the shaded ones are less colorful but still doing well. Corals can adjust to light, they have a hard time adapting to dirty environments.

Shaded torch on the sandbed under a large leather. The main one is growing in SPS light. It was either toss this frag or put it here.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Yes very correct about bacteria. You need to use exceptional maintenance to keep the aquarium clean. Cleaning socks very often, blowing detritus, maintaining your protein skimmer, large consistent WC, manual removal of easily removed algae, cleaning pumps, vacuum the sand to remove excess waste, etc….

I have fragged torch corals that both grow in intense light and the shade, of course the shaded ones are less colorful but still doing well. Corals can adjust to light, they have a hard time adapting to dirty environments.

Shaded torch on the sandbed under a large leather. The main one is growing in SPS light. It was either toss this frag or put it here.

Everything here sounds pretty reflex-google advice, no offense. I empty the skimmer as it fills, clean my socks as they get dirty. The sand is sifted by my goby, and turned over by multiple wrasse, eels, conches, and Nass snails. Rocks get blown as they get buildup. I don’t do large water changes because A: it’s a large system and even a 30% water change only helps remove 30% of the problem, if it’s a growing problem that won’t be enough alone, and B: if it were a small tank a 50% water change would be less of a loss on expensive salt. If nutrients are the problem I need ways to draw those down reliably, but fuge algae doesn’t grow. How large is your tank?

 

[Tahoe61]

While I am reluctant to continue to offer my opinion I feel that you might be caught up or overwhelmed with the number of systems and number of livestock you're trying to balance. The listed livestock is exorbitant.
It's not realistic to try to keep multiple fish and inverts from vastly different geographical locations housed in the same system or systems.
Thus far there has been no acknowledgement with regard to the possible cause of multiple issues. Each suggestion is dismissed. Obtaining the necessary information has not been forthcoming.
Perhaps providing the husbandry needed is impossible at this this time.

 

[CHSUB]

Everything here sounds pretty reflex-google advice, no offense

No offense taken, and my advice is just that; advice on the Message Board. However, your take could not be farther from reality. I started in the hobby in 1980 and was a LFS employee in 1982 incharge of all fish systems, Pet City Seabrook NH. Have had salt and fresh water fish since, including all during high school, college, and places I live. Tanks have ranged from 10 to over 400 gallons. I’m very consistent with my approach and advice. What I stated is exactly my practice and results speak for themselves, imo.

Here are some of my tanks from as far back to 1999, a 92 gallon corner and my current tank with mangroves:

 

[Wandering Albatross]

While I am reluctant to continue to offer my opinion I feel that you might be caught up or overwhelmed with the number of systems and number of livestock you're trying to balance. The listed livestock is exorbitant.
It's not realistic to try to keep multiple fish and inverts from vastly different geographical locations housed in the same system or systems.
Thus far there has been no acknowledgement with regard to the possible cause of multiple issues. Each suggestion is dismissed. Obtaining the necessary information has not been forthcoming.
Perhaps providing the husbandry needed is impossible at this this time.

I’m not trying to dismiss anyone, I’m trying to narrow down the problem. There was a time, with more stock than this, that I couldn’t get nutrients up at all. No matter what I did nutrients were at double zero. My pushback is me trying to get every bit of information possible for my specific situation. I’m trying to logic out some of these possibilities, because with the exception of huge water changes on a large system, I’m doing everything I can think of. My only conclusion left is that there is something else in the water that I can’t test for, something causing coral decline in most species, yet is harmless to the fish and inverts. Something that prevents my fuge algae from growing and keeps me struggling with nitrates. I will be ordering an ICP test to see if they can flag anything for me.

 

[Tahoe61]

I’m not trying to dismiss anyone, I’m trying to narrow down the problem. There was a time, with more stock than this, that I couldn’t get nutrients up at all. No matter what I did nutrients were at double zero. My pushback is me trying to get every bit of information possible for my specific situation. I’m trying to logic out some of these possibilities, because with the exception of huge water changes on a large system, I’m doing everything I can think of. My only conclusion left is that there is something else in the water that I can’t test for, something causing coral decline in most species, yet is harmless to the fish and inverts. Something that prevents my fuge algae from growing and keeps me struggling with nitrates. I will be ordering an ICP test to see if they can flag anything for me.

Once again you refuse to acknowledge that your stocking choices and husbandry techniques have hindered your success. There is no mystery, no unidentified chemistry or pathogens, there is no "something". My unsolicited advice is stop collecting every fish and invert that appeals to you. Give your systems time and patience.

Enjoy what you have, stop collecting.

Good luck and happy reefing.

 

[cutter2001]

I saw on your tank thread that you run it as a minimal water change system.

What's your tank maintenance routine?
Have you ran an ICP test?

No ICP test yet, but I’m seriously considering it at this point.

Skimmer now runs 24/7, emptied every 3-5 days or as needed. Carbon and gfo reactors are newer additions to be changed every 2 weeks or as needed. Filter socks cleaned once a week or as needed. Small water changes (20g roughly) 1-2x per month, water changed is drawn from sump detritus-buildup areas or down in the rocks and low flow areas of DT. Sifter goby manages sand very well, I do not need to turn it over or pull from it at this time. Glass needs scraping every 2-3 days, depending on if I want to let my snails get extra bites in. If either cyano or Dinos try choking a coral or otherwise annoy me, I’ll blow off the rocks with a turkey baster. Cyano sometimes clings to parts of the pumps and I’ll scrub those with a toothbrush as needed.

I have a dime-sized patch of coralline in one spot which considering its placement I find odd but oh well. I haven’t had any noticeable GHA on the rocks in quite some time, though small amounts do end up on the back glass if I don’t scrape often enough. The clowns like playing in it. There’s a couple tiny slow growing patches of bubble algae that I actually find cute at this point and am not bothered by.

I’m bothered by the struggle to get corals growing. I thought if it’s high nutrients macros would do great in the fuge, but they just get coated in Dinos and melt no matter what I do. I’m trying to avoid having to plumb in a UV, I’m not that handy. I tried high flow on sps frags thinking it’d help but they stayed retracted, and even that wouldn’t keep the Dinos off. Lower flow didn’t trigger a response either. I keep hearing that the best way to learn what good flow is is to see it, but if I can’t get a reaction either way, I’m flying nearly blind. All I can go on is some other reefer saying ‘high flow’.

I refuse to quit on the hobby, I love it too much. If all else fails I can drop corals for fowlr tanks, but the main draw for me was the idea of at least one bustling colorful reef…

Copepods will eat your Dino’s. My Dino phase lasted four days because of putting pods in the tank before anything else.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Copepods will eat your Dino’s. My Dino phase lasted four days because of putting pods in the tank before anything else.

Should I dose another 64oz of pods, or should I dose more? What about the larger amphipods?

 

[56longroof]

You did not read my comment and are just confirming your bias without understanding. My comment is concerning untest elements of “filth” or eutrophication. No3 is an end product, a closed system could be high in organic matter and have low or high no3. Corals don’t do well in environments with high organic matter, I’m wondering if his high no3 could be an indicator of eutrophication?

Eutrophication is caused by high nitrates and phosphate due to fertilizer or manure run off. There are natural occurrences of eutrophication but I highly doubt its relevant in this discussion. The posted test results do not point to this.Your posts remind me of someone that has a word of the day calendar and tries to apply it in a conversation to appear to be the most educated in the room.

 

[56longroof]

your tank is not matured yet. if your seeing dino and cyano that means there is not enough beneficial bacteria or microorganisms, corraline algae, etc to keep them at bay. run an icp. right after icp, do a water change. But some Dr.Tims or some other bacteria in there. turn lights way down. in your tank you could run 75-150 par and it would be just fine.

Im thinking the same thing but I would add some TBS live rock to boost the diversity in the biome.

 

[Uncle99]

The only flux will be in nutrients at this point, by trying to bring N and P down. Everything else moves very little. Which pest are you referring to? Cyano, dinos, aiptasia, or are you seeing something else that I'm not?

By pest stuff I mean all those non-beneficial algae’s and bacteria’s which populate at three times the rate of the good guys.

They come very fast in excess nutrient systems as well as starved systems or ones where the chemistry is a moving target.

You have 30 ish fish and 5 eels and feed heavily. That’s a heavy load for the processors to take.

If your keeping nitrates in 10-25 range and phosphate in the .1-.12 range, your exporting methods are simply fantastic.

I can’t come close to that with half the fish, no eels, in a 180g with dedicated Fuge.

ICP on both RODI and DT is where I’d go.

This would help to rule out contamination

 

[CHSUB]

Eutrophication is caused by high nitrates and phosphate due to fertilizer or manure run off. There are natural occurrences of eutrophication but I highly doubt its relevant in this discussion. The posted test results do not point to this.Your posts remind me of someone that has a word of the day calendar and tries to apply it in a conversation to appear to be the most educated in the room.

Call it what you want; sewage discharge, organic matter, dieing vegetation, farming all contribute to “dirt” water. They are numerous other nutrients that contribute to algae blooms and toxic conditions in both aquariums and nature.
You appear to be missing important information about biology, no3 and po4 are only a very small part of the equation.

 

[WY RecklessReefer]

Hi Wondering,

Verify your PH is sitting at 8.6? What's it drop to 1 hour after lights out?

I would start by doing 4 or 5 30% water changes every 2 days. I would vacuum out about 20% of your sand that's under 4" deep really well.

How big is your tank dimension wise. If your 6ft, I would buy another light. Run at 60-70% blue at peak and adjust your other colors to match. BRS has several "how to set up you lights video"

If your LPS has full PE for a few days, then retracts, I would look at your CBB and/or peppermints as culprits for eating them. I recently caught 2 peppermints eating a hammer after lights out. My porcupine fish enjoyed the snack.

As a safety net I would run pouches of cupasorb in your sump just in case metals got in your system.

Do you have a grounding probe in your tank, and have you verified you don't currently have stay voltage?

Lastly, I would look at the placement of your power heads. If you have any direct current on them, they'll normally bail out.

I also feed with an extremely heavy hand, but I also pull out heavy. I do not think it has anything to do with your NO3 or PO4.

I do like using the POIS BIO purple and yellow bacteria every 3 or 4 months as well.

I pull out about 2 gallons a week of caulerpa macro out of my sump as well.

My understanding of Chaeto is you have to have it rolling vigorously with extremely high light. I like grape or plate caulerpa, it grows well in the sump without additional needed reactors.

After the water changes and if stuff calms down, I would recommend 20% every week for a few months to help maintain the stability. Possibly look at changing salt mix.

For LPS I prefer to run my Mag up in the 1400 range. Torches and hammers really fluff up.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

By pest stuff I mean all those non-beneficial algae’s and bacteria’s which populate at three times the rate of the good guys.

They come very fast in excess nutrient systems as well as starved systems or ones where the chemistry is a moving target.

You have 30 ish fish and 5 eels and feed heavily. That’s a heavy load for the processors to take.

If your keeping nitrates in 10-25 range and phosphate in the .1-.12 range, your exporting methods are simply fantastic.

I can’t come close to that with half the fish, no eels, in a 180g with dedicated Fuge.

ICP on both RODI and DT is where I’d go.

This would help to rule out contamination

I didn’t think the garden eels produced waste like normal eels? Are normal eels more messy eaters or messy with their waste?

I’ll order an icp-ms test from ATI. Hoping that’ll shed light on if theres any contamination. I’d still like to bring N and Phos lower, but if there’s contamination that’s killing corals other than high nutrients or ‘filth’ then I’ll know what to focus on. I know I can hold these numbers nutrient-wise. I’m filling my water bin for a decent sized water change in hopes of drawing down some of whatever it is until I have a straight answer. I’ll keep old water for the test.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Hi Wondering,

Verify your PH is sitting at 8.6? What's it drop to 1 hour after lights out?

I would start by doing 4 or 5 30% water changes every 2 days. I would vacuum out about 20% of your sand that's under 4" deep really well.

How big is your tank dimension wise. If your 6ft, I would buy another light. Run at 60-70% blue at peak and adjust your other colors to match. BRS has several "how to set up you lights video"

If your LPS has full PE for a few days, then retracts, I would look at your CBB and/or peppermints as culprits for eating them. I recently caught 2 peppermints eating a hammer after lights out. My porcupine fish enjoyed the snack.

As a safety net I would run pouches of cupasorb in your sump just in case metals got in your system.

Do you have a grounding probe in your tank, and have you verified you don't currently have stay voltage?

Lastly, I would look at the placement of your power heads. If you have any direct current on them, they'll normally bail out.

I also feed with an extremely heavy hand, but I also pull out heavy. I do not think it has anything to do with your NO3 or PO4.

I do like using the POIS BIO purple and yellow bacteria every 3 or 4 months as well.

I pull out about 2 gallons a week of caulerpa macro out of my sump as well.

My understanding of Chaeto is you have to have it rolling vigorously with extremely high light. I like grape or plate caulerpa, it grows well in the sump without additional needed reactors.

After the water changes and if stuff calms down, I would recommend 20% every week for a few months to help maintain the stability. Possibly look at changing salt mix.

For LPS I prefer to run my Mag up in the 1400 range. Torches and hammers really fluff up.

I’d have to check after lights out, I normally test first thing in the morning before feeding.

I can try to vacuum it, but the eels won’t like it lol.

Tank is a 5x2 footprint. Lights are evenly spaced and they were rated to cover up to a 36x36” square with the current wide angle lenses.

The sudden retraction of healthy new corals was happening before either were in the tank unfortunately.

I ran cubisorb in the sump and DT thinking that there might be some metal from somewhere, but it never pulled anything. Was really hoping it would draw a bunch and fix the problem.

No grounding probe, could get one if it’ll help. Every so often I get a slight tingle from one section of the sump. No one seems affected by it, and it isn’t constant. But I’ve heard from some reefers that having a probe can make it worse by concentrating the current or something. No idea about electrical, can only go off my research.

I try to keep the flow from blasting corals directly. I will let it clip bare rock and bounce off it. I can always dial up or down if needed.

My sump is lower flow but my fuge light runs at almost 300 par towards the one side. I tried a flat bladed red macro as well but it melted too.

I recently started using the Red Sea salt because I wanted to see if it would help solve these problems, which so far it hasn’t, but perhaps several large changes will help dilute whatever is going on. As for the mag I normally hold it between 1450 and 1500, I hadn’t dosed because it wasn’t going down from anything and had been steady from my small water changes for months.

 

[Uncle99]

There should not be “tingle” in the water at all.
Something leaking voltage there.
Seen a heater that broke destroy beds of corals.
Unplug stuff one at a time to locate the culprit.
I’d eliminate that.