Could water changes become a thing of the past? i.e. tank chemistry

[homer1475]

Do girls count too? no waterchanges in 4 years since we started this tank ✌

"guys" was a general term, but YES girls are allowed too.

I should have probably said "people", but you get the idea.

 

[GARRIGA]

Organic export methods certainly cannot remove all types of organics.

Do they remove all that are any sort of problem in a reef tank? (e.g., a cyanobacterial toxin) That's unknown to me.

My consideration to that is how would 10% changes every other week make a dent were those issues not removed organically or via carbon or like? In nature there must be a process other than sheer volume. One would think after several millions of years that not removed or converted would accumulate to toxic levels. I'd be more concerned with man made issues than those from natural processes. Granted without long term testing we just don't know.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My consideration to that is how would 10% changes every other week make a dent were those issues not removed organically or via carbon or like?

It's a big effect! I've already done those sorts of calculations and published them.

Take this one, and read it as organic toxins instead of nitrate. The graphs are identical. All that changes is the ppm units would be something else.

Water Changes in Reef Aquaria by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Figure 3. Nitrate concentration as a function of time when performing water changes of 0% (no changes), 7.5%, 15% and 30% of the total volume each month. In this example, nitrate is present at 100 ppm at the start, and is accumulated at a rate of 0.1 ppm per day when no water is changed.

 

[Dan_P]

In reef tanks specifically, I have made some observations related water changes. Firstly, I would think that we can all agree that with proper parameter maintenance our tanks can thrive. Some of the ways people achieve this is by dosing, water changes, skimming, media reactors, UV lighting, etc.

Secondly whenever we come upon an issue almost 99% of the time has to do with parameters. While coral structure health can be easily solved by dosing, lighting, proper flow etc. Every niche issue generally goes back to nutrients, be it bubble, film, hair algae, cyano, diatoms and even dinos. They are tied into either a nitrate, phosphate or silicate problem. Its key to understand why those issues come about and how to solve them. Often I hear reefers throwing a water change at any problem they face, especially when it comes to nutrients. I have come to the conclusion that water changes can often (not always) create more of a problem than already exists. Say you have A diatom or Dino outbreak, performing water changes adds silicates to the water column and thereby promotes their growth. While water changes may be a "quick fix" to create a cleaner system I believe that they may cause more issues.

So we go to solutions. How can we solve issues like thes. My simple answer is once again tank chemistry. Lets say you have higher nitrates, skip the water change and dose iron. Iron has been proven to accelerate the growth of corals. What happens when corals are growing faster than normal? They consume more nutrients... Faster. So now your nitrate issue is out the door. Have phosphate issues? Dose carbon or other credible phosphate removers. Parameters in check, no water changes

While Bob from Montana might have a lot about reefing right, this method of parameter management has been incredibly effective. I don't recommend this way for everyone... its difficult but incredibly rewarding as life tends to teach us.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Nigel

Nice post. Deep.

I have a counter-conjecture for your consideration.

We really don’t know exactly what role water chemistry plays in successfully keeping coral. Water chemistry is in the fore of our thinking about reef maintenance because it is the only thing that we measure well. It is our hammer that we use to pound screws, bolts and and nuts. Chemistry has its place though. It is important but we tend to over use it to explain and resolve problems. If we knew how to assess bacterial and algal biofilms, water chemistry might not seem like such a useful tool. And there the possibility that if we did nothing to alter water chemistry, a subset of issues would resolve themselves.

 

[Reefer_punk]

It's a big effect! I've already done those sorts of calculations and published them.

Take this one, and read it as organic toxins instead of nitrate. The graphs are identical. All that changes is the ppm units would be something else.

Water Changes in Reef Aquaria by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Figure 3. Nitrate concentration as a function of time when performing water changes of 0% (no changes), 7.5%, 15% and 30% of the total volume each month. In this example, nitrate is present at 100 ppm at the start, and is accumulated at a rate of 0.1 ppm per day when no water is changed.

Interesting as we need to add both no3 and po4 daily to keep it measurable. Tank is 4 years old with 0 waterchanges. No3 is 2.5 and po4 is 0.04 both steady.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In nature there must be a process other than sheer volume. One would think after several millions of years that not removed or converted would accumulate to toxic levels. I'd be more concerned with man made issues than those from natural processes. Granted without long term testing we just don't know.

I certainly agree that man made ones accumulating is a big issue. Organotin compounds, for example.


Are they a bigger issue than naturally generated ones? Don't know.

As to the dilution question in the ocean, yes, that's a big part, as is all sorts of other slow processes, from biological modification to UV to cosmic rays.

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

One interesting aspect of organic compounds in the ocean is that some have been there for thousands of years.1,3 Many organic compounds, especially in surface waters, are rapidly cycling between living organisms that consume and modify them, and the dissolved forms that are just floating about. Acetate, for example, can have a turnover rate as high as once per day on average in the water column, and once per hour or two in pore water inside sediments.3

With each turn of this cycle, some of these organic materials become more and more refractory. That is, they become less and less palatable to organisms, and are turned over more and more slowly. Eventually, some remain that are largely resistant to further biodegradation and processing, and these can then stay as DOM for many thousands of years. Essentially, they are the waste that is left after every organism has had its shot at using them.

The pathways for degradation of such refractory molecules are not well known, but likely reflect some rare biological events (rare bacteria encounter them, they encounter a rare enzyme, or they are acted upon by an enzyme that does not normally process them, etc.). The long term degradation likely also includes physical and chemical processes, such as oxidation by oxygen, ozone, or other oxidizing agents, and being hit by appropriate radiation (UV, x-rays, gamma rays, etc.).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting as we need to add both no3 and po4 daily to keep it measurable. Tank is 4 years old with 0 waterchanges. No3 is 2.5 and po4 is 0.04 both steady.

I certainly recommend dosing nutrients or feeding more as needed, whether you do water changes or not.

 

[GARRIGA]

I certainly agree that man made ones accumulating is a big issue. Organotin compounds, for example.


Are they a bigger issue than naturally generated ones? Don't know.

As to the dilution question in the ocean, yes, that's a big part, as is all sorts of other slow processes, from biological modification to UV to cosmic rays.

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

One interesting aspect of organic compounds in the ocean is that some have been there for thousands of years.1,3 Many organic compounds, especially in surface waters, are rapidly cycling between living organisms that consume and modify them, and the dissolved forms that are just floating about. Acetate, for example, can have a turnover rate as high as once per day on average in the water column, and once per hour or two in pore water inside sediments.3

With each turn of this cycle, some of these organic materials become more and more refractory. That is, they become less and less palatable to organisms, and are turned over more and more slowly. Eventually, some remain that are largely resistant to further biodegradation and processing, and these can then stay as DOM for many thousands of years. Essentially, they are the waste that is left after every organism has had its shot at using them.

The pathways for degradation of such refractory molecules are not well known, but likely reflect some rare biological events (rare bacteria encounter them, they encounter a rare enzyme, or they are acted upon by an enzyme that does not normally process them, etc.). The long term degradation likely also includes physical and chemical processes, such as oxidation by oxygen, ozone, or other oxidizing agents, and being hit by appropriate radiation (UV, x-rays, gamma rays, etc.).

Obviously that degredation process not likely happening in our aquariums and to some extend much of what is found in nature may not exist in our aquariums. This is going to be one of those lessons that only time will show and only if some of us are willing to explore it. Although, other than slow growth or outright crashes we will likely not know if our inhabitants are prospering or just surviving. Not sure to what extend ICP and Biome testing will take us. Few of us have your background or ability to dissect our water to the point of ever knowing. Test of time via growth and reproduction may just be all we have and for me that might just be good enough. I know I got tired of buckets in the 70s. Not going back to that if I can avoid it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know I got tired of buckets in the 70s. Not going back to that if I can avoid it.

Me either. I stopped buckets and used an AWC system for 15 years, Loved it.

 

[GARRIGA]

Me either. I stopped buckets and used an AWC system for 15 years, Loved it.

That works. Not currently feasible for me.

 

[Nigel35]

Nice post. Deep.

I have a counter-conjecture for your consideration.

We really don’t know exactly what role water chemistry plays in successfully keeping coral. Water chemistry is in the fore of our thinking about reef maintenance because it is the only thing that we measure well. It is our hammer that we use to pound screws, bolts and and nuts. Chemistry has its place though. It is important but we tend to over use it to explain and resolve problems. If we knew how to assess bacterial and algal biofilms, water chemistry might not seem like such a useful tool. And there the possibility that if we did nothing to alter water chemistry, a subset of issues would resolve themselves.

Naturally. Chemistry is the way in this day an age that we can draw conclusions from our tank.

 

[Rollman]

Good Thoughts.. I change 10% per week on my 180 with the dos. Any long term SPS tank I respect does water changes. Period.

 

[J1a]

Naturally. Chemistry is the way in this day an age that we can draw conclusions from our tank.

As much as water chemistry is important, I agree with @Dan_P that there are so much more branches of sciences which are applicable to keeping a reef aquarium

Fluid dynamics, reactor design, microbiology, ecology, animal behavior, control theories, etc etc.

Even when it comes to the parameters which we believe are well measured, most of the time we fall short by looking at a snap shot of the values at a particular point. We often don't consider these parameter in intergral terms, and even less likely, in derivative terms.

There is so much depth to learn and appreciate in reefing. While it is not a prerequisite for maintaining a good aquarium, getting some understanding in these issues is a rewarding experience.

 

[Minhaj Qazi]

Water Changes. No Amino No traces and system most economically maintained without icp needs.
For no3 complete Randy Vinegar Regime once for all.
For po4 use LaCl weekly drops.
Easiest Reef Keeping

 

[Minhaj Qazi]

D

I don't like being "cheap'' I like to be effective. One could spend hundreds of dollars on Red Sea's trace elements just to get a name brand. I have an old liter jug full of liquidized iron and dose when I need to. I spend 18 cents every six months, other guys spend 30 bucks a package. Different price same results.

Dear i have been running my Reef Sucessfuly on Only Ca Rx and Continuous Water Changes with No amino No traces. System was absolutely Fine even icps show that however Recently i Decided to Experiment with Aminos Daily and Traces ex Fuana Marin at half Dose Weekly. Guess What Corals are Highly Unhappy. 2 sps stressed and 1 Torch head bleeching mostly.. im going thruba bad experinace. My Previous Simlle and Most Economical Approach Temind me of good days.
My Continuous Water Change Systen is Easy by a DIY Doser i made my Self with Parastaltic Dosers and water made for 2 months. I never ued to tweak but now inhav stopped dosjng and gettung ready for a Big Water Change to settle imbalance created if any. Also
Traces and Aminos cisted me more then 1 Bucket salt of TM which lasts 6 minths in my 146 gal mixed Reef. So i could have maintained pristine top notch system with just Ca Rx and Water Changes with no need of icp as well.
No3 never a problem and they donf Rise beyond 5ppm. Po4 is weeklybsettled back by LaCl Drops. I feed heavy 7 times daily nixed pellets and DIY Fresh.
Skimming wet as well.
My cent
Regards.

 

[Jeffcb]

I have always had fish tanks on and off since the 60s. We have always done water changes.

I stopped doing them on my reef tank about 6 months ago. Dialed in the doser. Its doing well. I think I will be guilt tripping my self into doing one soon, because we have always done them and that's the way it is.

 

[bychance]

I have started the Moonshiner's Method. I didn't start it to avoid water changes. My system has something going on I can't quite figure out.... It was recommended to me to do an ICP test to see if a culprit could be identified. Once I reviewed the results, I was shocked and a little discussed that some elements were very low while other elements were pretty high. I use AquaForest 123+. I didn't expect a perfect test, but I figured I would be kind in a range that was acceptable. 3 parts might work for some and there secrete blend of elements might keep some tanks right in the zone, but other tanks with non normal consumptions (like mine I guess) will be up and down all over the place.

Imagine a 3 part specifically blended for your tanks absolute consumption. Containing exactly what your tank is lacking and the right amount of what your water is rich in.

I'll still be doing water changes. They won't be weekly.
Water changes for me will be part of the process of cleaning my sump or sand bed etc. They won't be a targeted %, they will be only what is needed to clean. I will try to minimize water changes due to the fact they will add unknown amounts of trace elements.

I'm glad I wasn't on a weekly WC system using TM Pro Reef!

 

[GARRIGA]

I have started the Moonshiner's Method. I didn't start it to avoid water changes. My system has something going on I can't quite figure out.... It was recommended to me to do an ICP test to see if a culprit could be identified. Once I reviewed the results, I was shocked and a little discussed that some elements were very low while other elements were pretty high. I use AquaForest 123+. I didn't expect a perfect test, but I figured I would be kind in a range that was acceptable. 3 parts might work for some and there secrete blend of elements might keep some tanks right in the zone, but other tanks with non normal consumptions (like mine I guess) will be up and down all over the place.

Imagine a 3 part specifically blended for your tanks absolute consumption. Containing exactly what your tank is lacking and the right amount of what your water is rich in.

I'll still be doing water changes. They won't be weekly.
Water changes for me will be part of the process of cleaning my sump or sand bed etc. They won't be a targeted %, they will be only what is needed to clean. I will try to minimize water changes due to the fact they will add unknown amounts of trace elements.

I'm glad I wasn't on a weekly WC system using TM Pro Reef!

Can use a canister to clean the sump and not waste water plus flow is much faster and can polish the returning water if left running a bit. Food for thought.

 

[bychance]

Can use a canister to clean the sump and not waste water plus flow is much faster and can polish the returning water if left running a bit. Food for thought.

Definitely. I could run it through a filter sock as well.

I'm only 3 weeks into the Moonshine method, I'll cross that bridge when I get there. I don't feel like they preach against water changes, the fact that they won't be necessary is a plus. They do point out that once you do a water change, you may have to do corrective action again.

I'm struggling with high nitrates, they range from 38ppm to 44ppm. I did three 50% water changes, in 3 consecutive weeks and did not see my nitrates drop more than 5 ppm (after each WC), which is probably within the Hanna accuracy tolerance. My tank is about 7 months old, it was started with base rock, bio cubes and AquaForest sand. So I don't think that my rocks are leaching nitrates or hold nitrates within them. My point is, water changes aren't a bullet proof cure either, or my system defies logic..... I'm starting to think it defies logic

 

[AsraeaMitsane]

Moonshiners method , no water changes. Ok I have done one 10g water change since April but that was because I dosed flucanazole lol

i don’t see the reason for a water change , I run chemi pure blue , refugium for nutrients (also tons of Xenia ) and dose trace elements

+1 on the Moonshiner's method I really like how easy it is and the peace of mind you get from not wondering what's there or what's missing.