Culturing Tigger-pods

[philosophile]

Hey good to see the thread still going strong and new ideas coming into the equation. I ended up tearing my tigger pod tank down. It's really of no use anymore with my dragonet eating frozen foods like mini blood worms, mysis, and brine w/ spirulina. He is healthy and a chunker with plenty of pods all over the walls.
I did end up turning the tank into a mix freshwater neocaridina shrimp tank. Had great success starting with about 20 till the tank ended up getting muscular necrosis which killed all 150+ 3 months later. Yes they breed fast! After this happened. I end up taking the 20g and setting it up for my 5 1/2 year old Figure 8 Puffer that he now resides in happily.
There is some really beautiful shrimp out there to be had. Just not really the best ones are in the US. Some of them are in the $1000+ range! Think the Orange Eye Galaxy Fishbone is in $1500 range.
This is what it turned into.

Sweet! I have a neo tank as well, but it's mixed with some guppies I use as a supplement feeder to my nems. But I learned a lot from your original thread a couple of years ago. It'll help once I can start scaling up when my population starts increasing. Glad to hear your mandarin is doing well!

 

[philosophile]

Hey all, saw this thread is active, I just set up a "culture" for Reef Nutrition Tigger pods about a week ago.

It's a 4 dollar white bucket (5 gal) from home depot + lid.
There's a diy air-driven sponge filter hanging from the lid and for lighting,
the lid has a small "standard" bulb that hangs from the top. (its a low wattage LED and diy fixture)

The culture was started with brand new ASW, nothing from my tanks except a small batch of chaeto that I put through a dipping procedure (bayer + iodine dip), so there is a small chance of cross contamination from the chaeto, otherwise it's all new materials.

I also dose daily with Seachem Stability to get the sponge filter up and running.
I feed the pods Seachem Reef Phytoplankton each day (about 0.5ml) and I threw in a bit of toasted seaweed from the grocery store.

They all seem to be doing fine so far, but I may take up the food flakes idea, because flakes make it a lot easier for the pods to eat than having to swim around and find phytoplankton suspended in the water. I'll try to get some pics.

A couple of things I do: Unless you have a ton of pods, I would either switch to a smaller container, or radically reduce how much water is in the container. It'll just lead to more fouling because you need to add more food to hit the concentration needed for the pods. And the pods will have so much room that they might have a little harder time finding one another for amorous activities.

From my first attempt, liquid phyto just fouls the water too quickly. So I would either add some ammonia binding agent (prime) or switch to flake food. If you want to enrich with phyto the day before you harvest to feed to your tank, that would be good. I plan on enriching with spirulina because its cheaper, and can be stored forever in a powder.

I don't know if there will be much benefit from the chaeto, but if there is, (if it grows) let me know.

Lighting: I'm not using any. They just get natural light from the room they're in, but it isn't in direct sun. Mine seem to be doing fine, but again, it might be a little too early for me to say I'm doing things right.

If you have a sponge filter... then that means a couple of things: 1. you probably have WAY more aeration than you need. Tiggers come from basically motionless tidepools. So extra water movement would cause them unnecessary stress and energy expenditure. Also, I don't know if baby tiggers will be sucked into the sponge to die or not. I would take the sponge filter out, and if you want to use aeration, just weight the tube down with a piece of rock or something, and restrict the air to about 1-2 bubbles a second. I'll probably eventually move to aeration, but not in the tiny containers I have now. If your sponge filter IS set at 1-2 bubbles a second.... then you're not really getting all that much water motion through the filter to make it all that practical.

Finally, reading through other threads (40b Knasty's in particular) having a effective harvesting method will be useful in the future for me, so I've bought some sieves that will hopefully make harvesting and water changes a little easier. I'm getting a 250 um, and 12o um sieve, in combination with my 53 um sieve I already have, and hopefully that'll make big water changes and harvesting a breeze. I got the sieves at aquaculturenurseryfarms.com for $20 each.

quick question: Are your pods eating the nori? I gave mine a sliver of nori to eat, and they didn't seem interested, but if yours are eating it, then maybe I didn't leave mine in long enough (over night) for them to eat it, or maybe to finish eating it.

 

[Hermie]

A couple of things I do: Unless you have a ton of pods, I would either switch to a smaller container, or radically reduce how much water is in the container. It'll just lead to more fouling because you need to add more food to hit the concentration needed for the pods. And the pods will have so much room that they might have a little harder time finding one another for amorous activities.
Good point about them having a hard time finding one another, however I disagree about the fouling because I have the sponge filter for nitrification. I do agree though that a smaller container may be better considering the smaller population I started with.

From my first attempt, liquid phyto just fouls the water too quickly. So I would either add some ammonia binding agent (prime) or switch to flake food. If you want to enrich with phyto the day before you harvest to feed to your tank, that would be good. I plan on enriching with spirulina because its cheaper, and can be stored forever in a powder.
I've got to give flake food a try... Basically I am feeding what RN recommends in their culture instructions (IIRC), namely brown algae, since it's in the Reef Phytoplankton. As for fouling, my understanding is that it really just comes down to how much food is put in versus how much nitrification occurs. I only do 10 drops per day, and in 4 gal of water that's very little.

I don't know if there will be much benefit from the chaeto, but if there is, (if it grows) let me know.
Right now it sinks to the bottom of the bucket, but it's not entirely dying. I may need to suspend it closer to the light.

Lighting: I'm not using any. They just get natural light from the room they're in, but it isn't in direct sun. Mine seem to be doing fine, but again, it might be a little too early for me to say I'm doing things right.

If you have a sponge filter... then that means a couple of things: 1. you probably have WAY more aeration than you need. Tiggers come from basically motionless tidepools. So extra water movement would cause them unnecessary stress and energy expenditure. Also, I don't know if baby tiggers will be sucked into the sponge to die or not. I would take the sponge filter out, and if you want to use aeration, just weight the tube down with a piece of rock or something, and restrict the air to about 1-2 bubbles a second. I'll probably eventually move to aeration, but not in the tiny containers I have now. If your sponge filter IS set at 1-2 bubbles a second.... then you're not really getting all that much water motion through the filter to make it all that practical.
it's a thin wall large pore sponge, very "open" so there's no risk of losing any pods in it. I do disagree about 1-2 bubbles not being sufficient, all I'm aiming for is nitrification to prevent fouling of the water, so as long as water is moving, bacteria will be processing waste. I am a big fan of sponge filters because the water speed is so variable, from extremely slow to extremely fast, plus the aeration. With large pore sponges, there's no risk of losing small animals. I've raised amano fry with live phytoplankton and sponge filters as well.

quick question: Are your pods eating the nori? I gave mine a sliver of nori to eat, and they didn't seem interested, but if yours are eating it, then maybe I didn't leave mine in long enough (over night) for them to eat it, or maybe to finish eating it.
To be honest I am not quite sure if they are eating it. I have too much in there and may need to take some out. That said, when I moved the piece there were a number of pods on it and under it/near it, so I think they may be eating it.

I just tied a string to the chaeto and now have it suspended closer to the light, hopefully it can grow some. Also, thanks for the tip on Prime, I just added a few drops which is definitely good for "damage control" in case the sponge filter bacteria are out of whack.

 

[philosophile]

Day 11 of my second attempt. I have lots of nauplii! They are specks, and my iPhone can’t pick them up; but they are definitely moving and clinging to the side of my culture cup. They’re only present in one cup, the other cup seems completely devoid of babies.

I’m a little worried that flake food won’t be dispersed enough for the babies. Even being in a small cup, it’s a long distance for these babies to travel to get to the food. So I’m seriously contemplating trying spirulina powder again just to make it widely available for the nauplii.

 

[philosophile]

Day 12: I made a rookie mistake. I overfed my culture and it crashed. This morning maybe 1/4 of the culture was alive in both containers. Nauplii are absent. I changed out the water and saved the survivors.

How I overfed: feeding spirulina, I add powdered spirulina to fresh SW, and prime. shake really well and store in fridge. when I pulled it out to feed several more drops came out, when I intended only one drop. I mixed the two cultures together to homogenized the water and dilute the food, thinking that would be enough. I didn't want to do a water change because I was worried about the nauplii getting stuck in the sieve. In hindsight, I should have done the change, obviously.

So, I basically wiped out my gen 1 group, and 3/4 of the original brood stock. This is a pretty frustrating set back. I don't want to keep buying more pods, that's sort of the point behind culturing them, but I'm afraid it'll take an extra two weeks to just get back to the population I had, and who knows how long until I can move to a larger volume container, where I can introduce aeration safely.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Light and phyto keeps them thriving and growing

 

[fmp47]

How long can the pod cultures go without daily care? I have several trips planned for less than a week and would not want to start something that is not self sustaining for a short period.

 

[Hermie]

How long can the pod cultures go without daily care? I have several trips planned for less than a week and would not want to start something that is not self sustaining for a short period.

if you have filtration in there like a sponge filter, they can go at least a week IMO, I would even say up to 2 weeks but you may lose some from lack of food

 

[philosophile]

How long can the pod cultures go without daily care? I have several trips planned for less than a week and would not want to start something that is not self sustaining for a short period.

Not sure, but they are hardy little buggers. If you could find a food that won't foul your water in the period that you'll be gone, then you might be fine. For example, if you're gone for 3 days, you could feed the culture maybe 2 flakes of food, instead of your normal 1, and that means they'll go 1 day without food (which should be fine). Even if you're gone for 4 days, I wouldn't worry about it.

If it's longer than 4 days, I would suggest that you feed them well prior to leaving.... Then do a 100% water change, and put your culture in the fridge with a TINY amount of food, and lid open. The cold will slow their metabolism, and they should do fine for an extended time in the fridge (that's how they are sold at the LFS). When you get back, just take it out of the fridge, and let it warm up to room temperature, and resume feeding as normal.

 

[VBMike]

Hi- I thought I'd chime in on this one because I had tons of success culturing them for a couple years (until I finally dumped the cultures when we moved!).

First of all, let me say that Reed Mariculture themselves were a TON of help getting them going... they gladly offer tech support to their customers if you reach out to them.

From my many email exchanges with Reed, here's their recommendations, straight from the horse's mouth:

1. Phyto Feast or Shellfish Diet
2. There will be a die off during the first couple of weeks. It usually takes about 3 weeks before you see a bloom of late stage nauplii and early stage copepodites.
   
3. Stagnant water. (no aeration whatsoever)
4. Bi weekly 20% water change.
5. Don't stress the oil slick caused by the Phyto Feast (they're perfectly okay with disgusting water!)
6. They say that the red color comes from feeding them an algae high in red carotenoids... more on this later
7. In their natural environment, they live in splash pools above the tidal zone, so they are exposed to dramatic temperature, salinity and pH swings. They are well adapted to dirty, stagnant environments.

These emails were back in 2014, I imagine there's some improvements on the process since then, but my results were amazing.

I would like to add a few more observations I had

1. Once the culture is well established, they can go MUCH longer than 2 weeks without a water change.
2. I can't find the source, but I read somewhere that dark, shallow trays are the ideal culture vessel. Side lighting seems to disturb them. I used black busboy trays that picked up from Restaurant Depot. Chad Clayton of Reed pops up on the forums from time to time, this is probably where I got the tip.
3. I used no lighting at all. An hour or two before harvest time, I'd cut on a spot light and they'd get drawn to it... I'd scoop out thousands before the sludge on the bottom got stirred.
4. To expand on #6 above, my pods would randomly turn red for no apparent reason. I've seen outdoor cultures where they were red... maybe sunlight turns them?
5. I used a 120 micron pod screen to scoop adults but leave nauplii behind. They won't naturalize in a reef tank, so I didn't see any purpose of wasting the juveniles.

Anyway, the last thing I'd like to add is there is an awesome pod group on Facebook that's very active. It's called "The Copepod House". They have a lot of success by taking used filter pads and throwing them in outdoor cultures, which will cause the water to naturally go green. Check them out... https://www.facebook.com/groups/2004554299799876

Hope this helps...

VBMike

 

[Hermie]

Just to add on, the page from Reed shows they do recommend light aeration for Tigger pods:

What you will need for Culturing in a Stand Alone Container

1. We recommend at least 2 culture vessels in case one has issues. The vessels can be a 5 or 10 gallon aquarium, Tupperware container, etc. that holds water. Deep containers or carboys are not suggested.
2. Culture water. You will need some freshly mixed clean saltwater. We use BTAC salt in our systems. Do not use water from an existing aquarium or culture as this will contaminate your attempt to start a new culture of copepods. A specific gravity of 1.020 to 1.025 for this species of copepod is suggested
3. Small air pump, air stone, and airline tubing. You can also use rigid airline without an air stone. Very light aeration is adequate.
4. No heater is needed. This species is very hardy. Try to avoid culture temperature exceeding 85F. Optimal temperature range is 60F to 85F.
5. We recommend a small, direct light source like a simple dome, shop lamp - 12 hours on: 12 hours off.
6. A food source, such as Phyto-Feast phytoplankton, is recommended.
7. We don't use substrate in our cultures, but some people will have crushed gravel or sand and reef rock in their systems. We recommend that all substrate added is sterile and void of life so that you don't get any competing organisms in the culture.

Directions for Culturing in a Stand Alone Container

Fill your container half to two-thirds with clean saltwater. Add the air source to the culture and run it very low (2-3 bubbles per second is ideal). Make sure you use a drip loop and check valve to keep water from getting into your pump and electrical outlet. Add a small amount of Phyto-Feast (1-2mls) to some culture water and stir until homogenized. Then gently pour the diluted algae in so that you can lightly color the culture tank. Do not add too much, or the water will foul. After you've acclimated your copepods to temperature, pour them in and you are all set!

https://reefnutrition.com/product_tigger_pods.php#tab_use

 

[VBMike]

Just to add on, the page from Reed shows they do recommend light aeration for Tigger pods

That might be what they publish now, but I have an email from May 9, 2014 (almost exactly 5 years ago!):

You can get by with no aeration. I don't use any here at the farm in any of my cultures.

Chad

My experience with aeration is that it causes foam that the pods get stuck in. If you're much better about water changes than I was, this probably won't be an issue.

Oh! That reminds me of another tip for them... they co-culture very nicely with rotifers. I used heavy aeration with frequent collecting and water changes, so the populations weren't nearly as dense, though. I kept them at 1.018sg and fed them RotiGrow nanno. It really shows the adaptability of these little creatures!

VBMike

 

[philosophile]

Hi- I thought I'd chime in on this one because I had tons of success culturing them for a couple years (until I finally dumped the cultures when we moved!).

First of all, let me say that Reed Mariculture themselves were a TON of help getting them going... they gladly offer tech support to their customers if you reach out to them.

From my many email exchanges with Reed, here's their recommendations, straight from the horse's mouth:

1. Phyto Feast or Shellfish Diet
2. There will be a die off during the first couple of weeks. It usually takes about 3 weeks before you see a bloom of late stage nauplii and early stage copepodites.
   
3. Stagnant water. (no aeration whatsoever)
4. Bi weekly 20% water change.
5. Don't stress the oil slick caused by the Phyto Feast (they're perfectly okay with disgusting water!)
6. They say that the red color comes from feeding them an algae high in red carotenoids... more on this later
7. In their natural environment, they live in splash pools above the tidal zone, so they are exposed to dramatic temperature, salinity and pH swings. They are well adapted to dirty, stagnant environments.

These emails were back in 2014, I imagine there's some improvements on the process since then, but my results were amazing.

I would like to add a few more observations I had

1. Once the culture is well established, they can go MUCH longer than 2 weeks without a water change.
2. I can't find the source, but I read somewhere that dark, shallow trays are the ideal culture vessel. Side lighting seems to disturb them. I used black busboy trays that picked up from Restaurant Depot. Chad Clayton of Reed pops up on the forums from time to time, this is probably where I got the tip.
3. I used no lighting at all. An hour or two before harvest time, I'd cut on a spot light and they'd get drawn to it... I'd scoop out thousands before the sludge on the bottom got stirred.
4. To expand on #6 above, my pods would randomly turn red for no apparent reason. I've seen outdoor cultures where they were red... maybe sunlight turns them?
5. I used a 120 micron pod screen to scoop adults but leave nauplii behind. They won't naturalize in a reef tank, so I didn't see any purpose of wasting the juveniles.

Anyway, the last thing I'd like to add is there is an awesome pod group on Facebook that's very active. It's called "The Copepod House". They have a lot of success by taking used filter pads and throwing them in outdoor cultures, which will cause the water to naturally go green. Check them out... https://www.facebook.com/groups/2004554299799876

Hope this helps...

VBMike

If they are anything like daphnia, lack of oxygen causes them to redden up because they produce extra hemoglobin to compensate for the low O2. Good to know.

3 weeks sounds right for a boom in population. I saw nauplii a bit earlier but, they were hard to see. After 3 weeks they would be close to adults.

I know they feed diatoms, and phytofeast has the diatoms they feed them (They being Reed), but honestly, it’s relatively expensive stuff, and I’m trying to find a cheaper route. For $10 I can get a pound of spirulina powder, so that’s been my main goal to use as a food source, but finding the balance between feeding them and causing the culture to crash, has been tough, and finding that they eat flake, seems to be a much better solution.

I remember reading about shallow vessels somewhere else, and I’m thinking that when I scale up, I’ll probably go this route. Thanks for the info!

 

[BeejReef]

so, this is a noobish question... but, can different species of pods be cultured together (such as tigers, tisbes, and apocs) or would you have to maintain three separate cultures?

 

[VBMike]

If they are anything like daphnia, lack of oxygen causes them to redden up because they produce extra hemoglobin to compensate for the low O2. Good to know.

3 weeks sounds right for a boom in population. I saw nauplii a bit earlier but, they were hard to see. After 3 weeks they would be close to adults.

I know they feed diatoms, and phytofeast has the diatoms they feed them (They being Reed), but honestly, it’s relatively expensive stuff, and I’m trying to find a cheaper route. For $10 I can get a pound of spirulina powder, so that’s been my main goal to use as a food source, but finding the balance between feeding them and causing the culture to crash, has been tough, and finding that they eat flake, seems to be a much better solution.

I remember reading about shallow vessels somewhere else, and I’m thinking that when I scale up, I’ll probably go this route. Thanks for the info!

Yes, Phytofeast (and concentrates in general) is very expensive. In the email chain, Reed mentioned that they'll also live off of some live phytos... he named tetraselmis and isochrysis.

Keep us posted with the spirulina trials. I haven't used it on tiggers, but I've tried it a couple times with brine and blackworms and it always fouled the water very fast. A really gross sickening-sweet smell, as I recall lol. That being said, tiggers are probably a lot tougher than other critters!

 

[philosophile]

Yes, Phytofeast (and concentrates in general) is very expensive. In the email chain, Reed mentioned that they'll also live off of some live phytos... he named tetraselmis and isochrysis.

Keep us posted with the spirulina trials. I haven't used it on tiggers, but I've tried it a couple times with brine and blackworms and it always fouled the water very fast. A really gross sickening-sweet smell, as I recall lol. That being said, tiggers are probably a lot tougher than other critters!

Well 40B Knasty raised his on spirulina alone, so I'm just replicating that part of it. Ocean Nutrition spirulina flakes are what I'm using at the moment, although I am routinely experimenting with other food stuffs.

Also I've realized that phytofeast is SUPER concentrated. So if you want to culture in a small vessel to start (like I'm doing) you need to dilute the stuff prior to feeding, otherwise you'll overfeed and kill them all.

 

[philosophile]

so, this is a noobish question... but, can different species of pods be cultured together (such as tigers, tisbes, and apocs) or would you have to maintain three separate cultures?

I think you can culture them together, but generally one pod will end up being a little better/more efficient/more reproductive and that one will start crowding out the rest, in the culture. So it generally is better to have seperate cultures.

For the record, Apocs, and Tisbe do REALLY well in a refugium, and generally won't need a seperate culturing vessel if you have a good refugium. I seeded my tank with Apocs last month, and I have a population explosion right now.

 

[Hermie]

I think you can culture them together, but generally one pod will end up being a little better/more efficient/more reproductive and that one will start crowding out the rest, in the culture. So it generally is better to have seperate cultures.

For the record, Apocs, and Tisbe do REALLY well in a refugium, and generally won't need a seperate culturing vessel if you have a good refugium. I seeded my tank with Apocs last month, and I have a population explosion right now.

do your berried female apocs have egg sacs on both sides? like 2 sacs per female? I seeded my tank with apocs but I dont have any pods that carry 2 egg sacs, only one sac per female, so I don't think I seeded them

 

[BeejReef]

I think you can culture them together, but generally one pod will end up being a little better/more efficient/more reproductive and that one will start crowding out the rest, in the culture. So it generally is better to have seperate cultures.

For the record, Apocs, and Tisbe do REALLY well in a refugium, and generally won't need a seperate culturing vessel if you have a good refugium. I seeded my tank with Apocs last month, and I have a population explosion right now.

I have a pretty good fuge but have noticed my pod population (Tigers) is way down/on the way out. Silly pajama cardinals are hunting them like they're wrasses! Also, I stopped dosing phyto. If you're guessing, is that the problem? No phyto to tide them over through that stage of development? I'm really not interested in culturing them if I can keep a sustainable population in my fuge. I don't have a mandarin or anything. I just like the bio-diversity.

 

[philosophile]

do your berried female apocs have egg sacs on both sides? like 2 sacs per female? I seeded my tank with apocs but I dont have any pods that carry 2 egg sacs, only one sac per female, so I don't think I seeded them

They only have one egg sac