Cycling a Fishless cycle

[Cell]

Just 1 week in, low salinity, high temp, not sure if Bio-S even works directions say add daily for first 2 weeks of new tank so it's not quite like Bio-Spira or Fritzyme. I'd either wait another week and expect to see progress or add some proven/vetted cycling bacteria.

 

[masja205]

Your ammonia is really too high.
You want to keep within 2-4ppm at start of cycle.

If you hit 5ppm, then you may have stalled your cycled, and it will take longer to cycle your tank.

Just remember there is no instant cycle, unless you have alot of doner bacteria from an already established tank.
And even then depending on the size of the seed colony that can still take time.

For example, on my 150G i took a my old bacteria seed from my brightwell ceramic bricks on my established 24G which i was upgrading, and the complete cycle still took 8 weeks.

I was using all dry rock and dry stand at the start, as i did not want to deal with any of the pests my existing system had. I wanted to see if i could control the nuance pests by slowly introducing it with the proper preditors my eco system could handle now.

The key thing is patience.

Some thoughts

I assume your salinity is 1.015 not 1.0015

I assume you bought Bio S nitrifying bacteria, not probiotic bacteria

The typical starting total ammonia concentration is about 2 ppm. Very high ammonia concentration might interfere with bacteria growth. Not sure that 5 ppm is a problem,

29 C seems high for an aquarium.

As for no ammonia reduction after a week, many products seem to start very slowly. Only Fritz Turbo Start and BioSpira show ammonia reduction within days.

Hey thank you! Your assumptions are all correct to your point on the ammonia levels would you recommend a waterchange to bring it down if no change after a week? I have changed the temp down to 26 deg cel

 

[Naekuh]

Hey thank you! Your assumptions are all correct to your point on the ammonia levels would you recommend a waterchange to bring it down if no change after a week? I have changed the temp down to 26 deg cel

Ideally u want to keep within 2-4ppm.
If your at 5, id say do a small water change to get within that range.

And then just wait the cycle out.

The longest part in the cycle from my experience using seeds / cheat bottle, is the nitrite part.

It will take a very long time to get from nitrite -> nitrate, and this is where you see a lot of people ask questions about cycle, because they see nitrite climbing really high, with very little nitrate.

Also do not add anymore ammonia to the system until you reduced your nitrite...
Because if your nitrite gets too high you can stall the cycle again.


So in order of what you should do.
1. small water change to bring your ammonia to 2-4ppm.
2. go watch Dune 2. Go plan out what fish you want... do something that will keep your mind off your tank cycling.
3. Check each day for Nitrite, and wait... watch nitrite grow, do not add any more ammonia.
4. Wait til nitrite has peaked, and then test nitrate.
5. When all your nitrite has gone to 0-1ppm, then add another 2ppm ammonia.
6. Time how long it takes the 2ppm ammonia to all change into Nitrate.
7. By this point you will have a LOT of nitrate... about 20-40ppm depending on cycle.
8. Do a 40-50% waterchange, and then start adding livestock SLOWLY... remember if you add too many fish at once, you can have your cycle restart all over again to catch up.

Remember cycle conversion is:

1 Ammonia -> 2.4 Nitrite -> 3.6 Nitrate ~ approx .... so this is why you stockpile Nitrate.

Enjoy your reef on a couch with a can of beer and friends/family.

 

[vetteguy53081]

For cycle, did you start with ammonia chloride? While not an absolute, it will give you a base line to start from and if denitrifying bacteria working as well as rock, you will see ammonia rise then falls and hold a steady reading of Zero for at least 5 days and also nitrate will rise and fall and hold at 20 or below- then likely you are cycled.

 

[masja205]

Ideally u want to keep within 2-4ppm.
If your at 5, id say do a small water change to get within that range.

And then just wait the cycle out.

The longest part in the cycle from my experience using seeds / cheat bottle, is the nitrite part.

It will take a very long time to get from nitrite -> nitrate, and this is where you see a lot of people ask questions about cycle, because they see nitrite climbing really high, with very little nitrate.

Also do not add anymore ammonia to the system until you reduced your nitrite...
Because if your nitrite gets too high you can stall the cycle again.


So in order of what you should do.
1. small water change to bring your ammonia to 2-4ppm.
2. go watch Dune 2. Go plan out what fish you want... do something that will keep your mind off your tank cycling.
3. Check each day for Nitrite, and wait... watch nitrite grow, do not add any more ammonia.
4. Wait til nitrite has peaked, and then test nitrate.
5. When all your nitrite has gone to 0-1ppm, then add another 2ppm ammonia.
6. Time how long it takes the 2ppm ammonia to all change into Nitrate.
7. By this point you will have a LOT of nitrate... about 20-40ppm depending on cycle.
8. Do a 40-50% waterchange, and then start adding livestock SLOWLY... remember if you add too many fish at once, you can have your cycle restart all over again to catch up.

Remember cycle conversion is:

1 Ammonia -> 2.4 Nitrite -> 3.6 Nitrate ~ approx .... so this is why you stockpile Nitrate.

Enjoy your reef on a couch with a can of beer and friends/family.

Hey thank you so much for the information the steps are incredibly helpful

I I haven't complated any the water changes but now thinking I probably should have, to avoid poisoning the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria. Is it too late to water change to bring the ammonia down? the ammonia is still at around the 2- 3ppm mark.

I have been testing and have had success in seeing the nitrites increase a bit (I started dosing more of the AF BIO-S bacteria to see this change) and observing the colouration of the rock work is starting to change to a more brown/yellowish tint. Have attached a chart with my results if it helps.

 

[masja205]

I'm a little worried I am going to spike the nitrites very high if I don't do the water change?

 

[Naekuh]

I'm a little worried I am going to spike the nitrites very high if I don't do the water change?

you do a water change at the end of cycle right before you add fish.

 

[masja205]

you do a water change at the end of cycle right before you add fish.

So leave as is you think? I am happy to continue testing and add bacteria to consume the remaining ammonia

 

[Naekuh]

So leave as is you think? I am happy to continue testing and add bacteria to consume the remaining ammonia

yes leave it as it is until your cycle is finished, otherwise you'll do a double water change.

High nitrates is a end product of cycle.
Then you flush the nitrates out with a water change of 40-50%.

Then add fish and start your happy journey in reef tank.

 

[masja205]

yes leave it as it is until your cycle is finished, otherwise you'll do a double water change.

High nitrates is a end product of cycle.
Then you flush the nitrates out with a water change of 40-50%.

Then add fish and start your happy journey in reef tank.

Thank you so much! You’re help has been greatly appreciated for this newbie

 

[Freenow54]

I'm a little worried I am going to spike the nitrites very high if I don't do the water change?

I did not worry about that myself. Just waited it out until 5ppm of ammonia reduced to zero in 24 hours. Took a long time butbto me it was worth it

 

[masja205]

I did not worry about that myself. Just waited it out until 5ppm of ammonia reduced to zero in 24 hours. Took a long time butbto me it was worth it

I did not worry about that myself. Just waited it out until 5ppm of ammonia reduced to zero in 24 hours. Took a long time butbto me it was worth it

Nice! Is that when you tested the cycle is complete?

 

[masja205]

Any idea on what the flow should be like during the cycling? I have a wavemaker in there set to high

 

[brandon429]

post number #25 shows an important, important aspect of updated cycling science


there's a unique thing in that chart above that really matters here, old cycling science will never catch it. old cycling science will not be able to name the exact date your cycle was ready


but new cycling science can


along with any cycling chart that was ever printed in a book. your chart in post #25 ties into any objective cycling chart from an aquarium book by one critical intersection of data.

take a guess on what that is

we know the exact date your cycle was complete by a certain tracking on that one chart in post #25. I'd like to show several other threads that critical chart data you made.

 

[brandon429]

also, what is the ammonia test kit that rendered that chart
what brand is it

 

[masja205]

post number #25 shows an important, important aspect of updated cycling science


there's a unique thing in that chart above that really matters here, old cycling science will never catch it. old cycling science will not be able to name the exact date your cycle was ready


but new cycling science can


along with any cycling chart that was ever printed in a book. your chart in post #25 ties into any objective cycling chart from an aquarium book by one critical intersection of data.

take a guess on what that is

we know the exact date your cycle was complete by a certain tracking on that one chart in post #25. I'd like to show several other threads that critical chart data you made.

Please enlighten me

 

[masja205]

also, what is the ammonia test kit that rendered that chart
what brand is it

The Red Sea test kit

 

[apista]

Yes stalling a cycle with 4ppm plus is one of them old myths.

 

[Freenow54]

Nice! Is that when you tested the cycle is complete?

Yes. It's all from someone's publication I followed it to the letter

 

[brandon429]

here's the exact breakdown

your chart above reinforces updated cycling science because of the day ten initial ammonia drop. this means given your type of cycle, most all reef tanks will be done by day ten regardless of what test kits vary in readouts person to person

that tenth day drop data plot is the umpire by which we gauge test kits, it's not that the test kit determined the actual cycling date. if your chart above showed any longer than that initial drop date, I would have known you were dealing with a misreading test kit or a misinterpretation of the reading on the kit.

it doesn't matter how low it actually dropped, that's your nondigital test kit limitation regarding how deep the trough is. on a seneye that drop would be substantial, and even faster than day ten.

it means we can predict the ready date of any reef tank cycle before the tank is even built: it'll be done by day ten wait if we've used any common approach for cycling.

what makes it updated cycling science vs old is that we know you don't have to redose ammonia after that initial drop, to create a second peak and trough, but if you do that's no big deal.

we know that every successive spike of ammonia inputs factors that make your subsequent nondigital test kits even less likely to reach zero, thereby false-stalling out hundreds of cycles beyond the simple first drop by day ten.

all you have to do is a change of water and you're cycled, past that date. and don't forget, implantation dates per brand of bottle bac have already been studied, it's here in Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread:

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Call me old school, back in the day we placed a deli shrimp in a tank to kick start the cycle. When tank reached 1.5-2 ppm ammonia we pulled it out and waited sometimes weeks to months for bacteria to colonize and drop ammonia and nitrites down to 0 to make tank safe for livestock. With recent...

www.reef2reef.com

whats the max implantation time, for working strains there? 10 days or less

the recurring theme of every seneye cycle I've ever seen having it's initial drop by day ten, and every cycling chart I've ever seen in a book, plus your data, plus Dr Reef's massive data study, sure shows that day ten wait is a surefire bet and actually more reliable than using basic testing. the wait time is the reliable tell, not the stated levels.

why does any of this matter:

because when you know the exact date your cycle is done, you can focus on disease prevention planning / that's what's important. updated cycling science has a specific close date for a given type of cycle

old cycling science never mentions disease preps as a requirement for fish use and it can never be used to predict the cycle ready date for any reef tank. if they're using Red Sea kits, or even better API ammonia known to confuse the masses, then stated cycle dates are all over the place but not in reality.

all that came from your data chart above.

another aspect that separates new from old cycling science is what parameters to measure. we only care about ammonia now, not the other two params.

also

red sea kits measure in nh4 not nh3. to get nh3 out of a red sea ammonia kit you have to run the numbers through a little chart in the instructions that factors in pH levels, and having a tuned pH meter you can trust is mighty rare. api or red sea color tube guess kits can't measure pH well enough to use it in an nh3 equation estimate.


that's why counting the number of days a cycle has been running is the best way to cycle, it eliminates testing altogether. updated cycling science would have told you the cycle would be done by day ten, before you even built the tank. thousands of other people have already shown it. you get the same results, even if you didn't test.