Cycling an 1100 Reef

[apapireef]

I have a brand new 1100 gal reef and decided to use ammonia along with Fritz Turbo Start to cycle it. I started cycling it on June15 bringing the ammonia level to 2.0 ppm. The baseline ammonia level was 0.04 and the baseline nitrate was 0.3. I measured the ammonia levels every two to three days and added more ammonia after measuring to bring the level up to 2.0 approximately every two days. The ammonia levels were as follows:

Date Ammonia Nitrate Added ammonia to bring level to 2.0

6/15 0.04 0.3 Yes
6/17 1.21 Yes
6/18 1.71
6/19 1.27 Yes
6/20 1.67 Yes
6/21 1.51
6/22 0.99 Yes
6/24 0.89 Yes
6/26 0.90
6/27 1.02 >75 Yes ammonia. Turned on the lights part time.
6/29 0.85 Yes
7/01 0.31 Yes
7/03 0.70 Yes ammonia. Brown algae starting to grow. Started the skimmer and the UV light.
7/04 0.90 225
7/05 0.65 208
7/06 0.36 196 Yes
7/07 264
7/08 0.87
7/09 0.38 268 No ammonia, started carbon.
7/10 0.22 250
7/12 0.11 265

The ammonia is going down, but not as fast as I would have expected in a cycled tank and the nitrate is frozen at 250-260. The tank is growing brown algae from when I started the lights.

These are my questions:

1. Why isn't the nitrate going up more?
2. Is my tank cycled?
3. Should I do a 50% water change now?
4. Can I add about 50 fish that I have in my quarantine tanks?

 

[ScottJ]

Completely out of my depth on a tank that large. But I would say that you probably don't want to add all 50 fish at the same time. And you should do a water change before adding livestock. 250 ppm nitrate is very high. Could it be nitrite interfering with the test? Don't know. You dosed an awful lot of ammonia for quite a while. Also, how are you measuring nitrate? Hanna HR goes up to 75 ppm, I think? Are you diluting the sample? I would try to get that down to a more reasonable level.

Personally, I would do as large a water change as you can, and see where you stand.

As to is it cycled, If you have rocks, flow, heat, and Fritz, after a month, it's cycled.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Why do you keep dosing ammonia? Continuing to dump ammonia serves no purpose. The idea is to seed the nitrogen cycle, watch ammonia start to process and move on. You can certainly stall the nitrogen cycle by dumping in excess ammonia and promoting heterotrophic growth that outcompetes the nitrifiers. They consume the available carbon and then crash. The nitrifiers basically never expand and you end up in a stalled nutrient limited state.

Why would you do a 50% water change?

Stop dosing.

Watch for ammonia to drop.

Stop testing nitrite and nitrate.

Add a few fish and feed them and let them poop. Keep an eye on things and introduce fish slowly over the coming days and weeks. Allow the system to adjust on its own.

 

[LiverockRocks Verified Sponsor]

I have a brand new 1100 gal reef and decided to use ammonia along with Fritz Turbo Start to cycle it. I started cycling it on June15 bringing the ammonia level to 2.0 ppm. The baseline ammonia level was 0.04 and the baseline nitrate was 0.3. I measured the ammonia levels every two to three days and added more ammonia after measuring to bring the level up to 2.0 approximately every two days. The ammonia levels were as follows:

Date Ammonia Nitrate Added ammonia to bring level to 2.0

6/15 0.04 0.3 Yes
6/17 1.21 Yes
6/18 1.71
6/19 1.27 Yes
6/20 1.67 Yes
6/21 1.51
6/22 0.99 Yes
6/24 0.89 Yes
6/26 0.90
6/27 1.02 >75 Yes ammonia. Turned on the lights part time.
6/29 0.85 Yes
7/01 0.31 Yes
7/03 0.70 Yes ammonia. Brown algae starting to grow. Started the skimmer and the UV light.
7/04 0.90 225
7/05 0.65 208
7/06 0.36 196 Yes
7/07 264
7/08 0.87
7/09 0.38 268 No ammonia, started carbon.
7/10 0.22 250
7/12 0.11 265

The ammonia is going down, but not as fast as I would have expected in a cycled tank and the nitrate is frozen at 250-260. The tank is growing brown algae from when I started the lights.

These are my questions:

1. Why isn't the nitrate going up more?
2. Is my tank cycled?
3. Should I do a 50% water change now?
4. Can I add about 50 fish that I have in my quarantine tanks?

1. What test kit are you using to measure Nitrates?
2. Weakly cycled yes.
3. Absolutely, 25% + water change, dim the lights and no uv.
4. Definitely do not add fish.

Consider adding real live rock to the system...if you don't want it in the display then load up the sump.
Once the tank is more mature and stablized, begin adding fish slowly. This will allow good bacteria to build with each additional ammonia producer.

Take your time here, fish can wait until you're confident the tank is ready. Please share more details regarding the system, lots of knowledgeable folks here on R2R that are happy to help.

Rock on.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Absolutely, 25% + water change, dim the lights and no uv.

Can you explain your reasoning here? This advice seems to be a common “cycling” step that gets passed on, but unless something is very wrong with the system, it serves no purpose. Even to that end, other than massive die off from poorly handled live rock, I am not even sure what could be wrong enough to do a water change in a newly cycled or cycling tank.

 

[reefernc02]

Like others have said mix the ammonia dosing and allow things to happen on their own I gave my tank almost 10 months to cycle before moving any of my fish from the other system or adding new ones.Nothing good ever comes fast allow it time and it will flourish

 

[LiverockRocks Verified Sponsor]

Can you explain your reasoning here? This advice seems to be a common “cycling” step that gets passed on, but unless something is very wrong with the system, it serves no purpose. Even to that end, other than massive die off from poorly handled love rock, I am not even sure what could be wrong enough to do a water change in a newly cycled or cycling tank.

To begin, we look at this with olde school glasses and endorse a natural approach at cycling tanks. Reef tank enthusiasts' goal is to replicate the ocean, right. How does the ocean environment roll? A constant supply of fresh, oxygenated water moving about the seas, beach action skimming, rainwater topoff, rock & sand and lots of life doing its thing naturally.

I am not here to argue with you @BeanAnimal, there are lots of opinions & experience on this forum. The most basic and fastest way to address a problem is with a water change. This can reset some mistakes and/or buy time to address the mistake.

Hope you are not referring to TBS when you mention poorly handled live rock.

Cycling a tank is actually very easy and trouble free when using healthy live rock. Fill functional aquarium with saltwater, add real live rock (not dry rock soaking in bottle bacteria) at a ratio of 1lb per gallon in the display tank (basic ratio). Let the diverse micro-organisms found in and on live rock do its thing living, multiplying, dying = cycling the tank. This natural cycling process can take as little as a day to a week depending on various factors. In general, we suggest beginning weekly water changes a week after adding base rock to a new tank. Is it needed in all circumstances? No. But in our opinion, water changes are a good thing and it's a good habit to start.

Rock on.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am not here to argue with you @BeanAnimal, there are lots of opinions & experience on this forum. The most basic and fastest way to address a problem is with a water change. This can reset some mistakes and/or buy time to address the mistake.

I don’t disagree on premise, and not looking to argue either. I was curious as to your reasoning and wanted to point out that there does not really appear to be an actual reason to do a water change as part of a cycle — other than it being the age old advice that is passed along but not well reasoned. I don’t see it hurting, but I suppose the question is: what does it actually accomplish in all but extreme edge cases?

Hope you are not referring to TBS when you mention poorly handled live rock.

Not in the slightest and apologies if that is what you thought I meant. I have both high regard for your rock and your business. The way you handle and ship rock is a far cry from the old days or other methods where it is harvested and sits on deck, docks or tarmacs and is shipped damp days later.

But in our opinion, water changes are a good thing and it's a good habit to start.

I don’t do water changes and haven’t for nearly a decade now — but I wouldn’t argue against them. In fact I would argue that any new reef keeper do them with regularity. So we are in agreement there.

So sorry if there was confusion. I am a TBS fan and think your product and customer service are top notch.

 

[apapireef]

I am not here to argue with you @BeanAnimal, there are lots of opinions & experience on this forum. The most basic and fastest way to address a problem is with a water change. This can reset some mistakes and/or buy time to address the mistake.

I don’t disagree on premise, and not looking to argue either. I was curious as to your reasoning and wanted to point out that there does not really appear to be an actual reason to do a water change as part of a cycle — other than it being the age old advice that is passed along but not well reasoned. I don’t see it hurting, but I suppose the question is: what does it actually accomplish in all but extreme edge cases?

Hope you are not referring to TBS when you mention poorly handled live rock.

Not in the slightest and apologies if that is what you thought I meant. I have both high regard for your rock and your business. The way you handle and ship rock is a far cry from the old days or other methods where it is harvested and sits on deck, docks or tarmacs and is shipped damp days later.

But in our opinion, water changes are a good thing and it's a good habit to start.

I don’t do water changes and haven’t for nearly a decade now — but I wouldn’t argue against them. In fact I would argue that any new reef keeper do them with regularity. So we are in agreement there.

So sorry if there was confusion. I am a TBS fan and think your product and customer service are top notch.

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. This is how I have been cycling my smaller tanks. I’ve started with Fritz and ammonia and kept the ammonia up until it drops from 2 to zero overnight and the nitrates are going up. At that point I consider the tank cycled, do a water change and I’m done. But with this tank (it has live rock) I think the cycle stalled. Now I’m at near zero ammonia with brown algae growing and stagnant nitrates. If you all agree the cycle stalled then what? Without ammonia there’s nothing for the nitrifiers to metabolize.

What else do you need to know about the tank? It has a chiller, closed loop, big skimmer and UV and Radions.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. This is how I have been cycling my smaller tanks. I’ve started with Fritz and ammonia and kept the ammonia up until it drops from 2 to zero overnight and the nitrates are going up. At that point I consider the tank cycled,

You only need to spike ammonia once and wait for it to start dropping. By doing it over and over with no other organics, you run the risk of creating an imbalance.

Ignore nitrates, watch for ammonia to start dropping. The cycle has started. There is never a "complete" cycle. The stages of nitrification mist progress but ammonia dropping means that it has started.

So at this point watch for ammonia to drop to a somewhat safe level -- add a fish or two, or and move forward slowly with observation of ammonia. That simple.

 

[apapireef]

Completely out of my depth on a tank that large. But I would say that you probably don't want to add all 50 fish at the same time. And you should do a water change before adding livestock. 250 ppm nitrate is very high. Could it be nitrite interfering with the test? Don't know. You dosed an awful lot of ammonia for quite a while. Also, how are you measuring nitrate? Hanna HR goes up to 75 ppm, I think? Are you diluting the sample? I would try to get that down to a more reasonable level.

Personally, I would do as large a water change as you can, and see where you stand.

As to is it cycled, If you have rocks, flow, heat, and Fritz, after a month, it's cycled.

I'm using Hanna and diluting the samples with salt water from my mixing tank.

 

[apapireef]

You only need to spike ammonia once and wait for it to start dropping. By doing it over and over with no other organics, you run the risk of creating an imbalance.

Ignore nitrates, watch for ammonia to start dropping. The cycle has started. There is never a "complete" cycle. The stages of nitrification mist progress but ammonia dropping means that it has started.

So at this point watch for ammonia to drop to a somewhat safe level -- add a fish or two, or and move forward slowly with observation of ammonia. That simple.

Thank you for that. I'll wait for the ammonia to drop a little more and add a few fish to see what happens. I'll continue using the skimmer and UV. I think I'll check the nitrates once in a while to see that they are rising again. If I see that and ammonia stays near zero that will tell me that the nitrifying bacteria are coming back. I might send a sample for a bicrobiome analysis. What do you think of this plan?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Save the money on the analysis.

Ammonia toxicity depends on pH
NH3 is your concern, not NH4

https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
You are likely ready for a few fish now, but it will not hurt to wait a few more days. Checking nitrate is up to you, but there is no need.

The same holds true for water change. I don’t see a need, but it will not hurt and is up to you.

 

[apapireef]

Thank you!!

 

[apapireef]

Save the money on the analysis.

Ammonia toxicity depends on pH
NH3 is your concern, not NH4

https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
You are likely ready for a few fish now, but it will not hurt to wait a few more days. Checking nitrate is up to you, but there is no need.

The same holds true for water change. I don’t see a need, but it will not hurt and is up to you.

I listened to the excellent advice given in this thread and waited for the ammonia to go down and started adding fish a few weeks ago. Now I have about 40 small fish in the tank. The ammonia level is steady at 0.07-0.08 ever since I started adding the fish. The nitrates have been going down ever since I added the fish and today are down to 31 using the Hanna test kit. The water is very slightly cloudy. There are some brown algae growing, but not many. No coraline algae yet. I have the lights on at 20%. I’m running the skimmer and the UV. The skimmer keeps pulling out a lot of muck.

So my question is: where are all the nitrates going?

I have live sand, but only about 3 inches of it. Today I added copepods and some phyto. Am I skimming too much? The fish look super happy. I’ve read that having zero nitrates is bad and that you can get bacterial and algal overgrowth. Please advise. Thanks!

 

[BryanM]

3" thick of live sand in an 1100 gallon aquarium is sizable!

31 nitrates and fallng doesn't seem to be concerning to me, it is a monitor and see. If they get sub 10, I would start to worry.

Zero N or P is bad in any system. You do not want to bottom out.

 

[apapireef]

Save the money on the analysis.

Ammonia toxicity depends on pH
NH3 is your concern, not NH4

https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
You are likely ready for a few fish now, but it will not hurt to wait a few more days. Checking nitrate is up to you, but there is no need.

The same holds true for water change. I don’t see a need, but it will not hurt and is up to you.

I listen to your advice and added some fish. Please see my thread entry above, I couldn’t help myself and tested the nitrates and they are rapidly heading down to zero. The curve has been quite linear. Is there anything to worry about? I added the copepods and some phyto. Should I continue adding phyto? Thanks!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Stop worrying about nitrates. Why are you adding phyto to a new tank with a few fish? Copepods will grow on their own, you don't need to feed them.

Advice again, stop dumping random stuff into the tank because some YouTuber says you need to. Fish don't need phyto, you have no coral and your copepods will be fine. Don't worry about nitrites, nitrates or ammonia. You are done testing those for now. Maybe down the road, when you have coral and start feeding heavily, then phosphate and nitrate will be something to start considering. You are nowhere near that point yet. Don't dump anything else into the tank. Just feed the fish.

 

[PPBlimpy]

A tank this large I probably would have gone with a fish in cycle. How many fish would have depended on live rock

I may have missed it but approx how much rock? where did it come from? dry new vs dry used vs cured vs good live from an upgrade from a different tank? what kind of sand?

lots more info is needed.

But I would stop adding anything else to the tank. Let the ammonia process. See where everything lands in a couple days, ad a couple hearty fish. only thing I would possibly ad is good cycled active live rock and more bacteria.

In no way would I ad 50 fish, or personally have 50 fish in QT prior to a tank bein established.

have pictures?

 

[JumboShrimp]

A One Thousand, One Hundred gallon tank?? (1,100).

I would have thrown in a clean (quarantined) Clown fish, and fed it for a month. Then start adding another fish of your choice 3-4 weeks apart, depending on size/bioload.

We're not talking about a 10 gallon tank here! I wouldn't have used bottled anything, nor measured anything. Call Mr crazy.