Debating on Wartskin angler

[yellowfin-reef]

So, I am currently debating on setting up a species only tank for a wartskin angler. I have the spare tank, the experience (8 years plus), and some experience with keeping more advance animals (harlequin shrimp, my pair is three years old).

But during my research, it seems many do not have long term success with these little guys, I do plan to feed live gut loaded ghost shrimp, (I already go to the fish store once a week for harlequins, and i would like to try raising/breeding mollies in my main reef display.
Any tips or tricks, ive seen mentioned that they prefer cooler water, feed sparingly, and don't use any medication. Any advice or experinces (even if the end point is to not get one) would be welcomed

 

[lion king]

Read through this and if you have specific questions I could answer I'd be happy to.

So you want a frog fish; I call them anglers

I've kept a few, my first going back 25 years. These are very difficult fish to keep and I am still very frustrated as to the success in keeping these guys long term. I do have some information I would like to share for those interested. Be forewarned, they are not for everyone and do take...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[yellowfin-reef]

Read through this and if you have specific questions I could answer I'd be happy to.

So you want a frog fish; I call them anglers

I've kept a few, my first going back 25 years. These are very difficult fish to keep and I am still very frustrated as to the success in keeping these guys long term. I do have some information I would like to share for those interested. Be forewarned, they are not for everyone and do take...

www.reef2reef.com

I’m so happy you commented, I’ve been browsing your threads/advice for several days, taking notes and the advice you offer is wonderful.
The live food makes perfect sense, gut content and fauna is a very important thing in reptile keeping, that variety is the reason why so many large reptile are fed larger prey items, as well as a variety, ( live but still) to cover the all their needs. So a similar thought process makes sense for predatory fish.

For feeding, I hope to establish a breeding colony of mollies/guppies in one of my pre-existing tanks (I have a 75g SW and a 56g bowfront FW) so I’ll always have food on hand, and I can control what they are fed from the get go. I also plan to get ghost shrimp, when I go on my weekly starfish run. These will be kept and gut loaded.
Okay now for the questions, I read that you fed a really small one with cherry shrimp, do you think young guppy or molly fey could work? Also if I acclimated the mollies to SW, do I need to be concerned like you would with other SW feeders, (i don’t think I would have to be, but I want your opinion, my tank is stocked and everything is QTd before hand)

 

[lion king]

I’m so happy you commented, I’ve been browsing your threads/advice for several days, taking notes and the advice you offer is wonderful.
The live food makes perfect sense, gut content and fauna is a very important thing in reptile keeping, that variety is the reason why so many large reptile are fed larger prey items, as well as a variety, ( live but still) to cover the all their needs. So a similar thought process makes sense for predatory fish.

For feeding, I hope to establish a breeding colony of mollies/guppies in one of my pre-existing tanks (I have a 75g SW and a 56g bowfront FW) so I’ll always have food on hand, and I can control what they are fed from the get go. I also plan to get ghost shrimp, when I go on my weekly starfish run. These will be kept and gut loaded.
Okay now for the questions, I read that you fed a really small one with cherry shrimp, do you think young guppy or molly fey could work? Also if I acclimated the mollies to SW, do I need to be concerned like you would with other SW feeders, (i don’t think I would have to be, but I want your opinion, my tank is stocked and everything is QTd before hand)

I've never used cherry shrimp and honestly not sure of the value or risk in feeding them. I really can't remember the specifics but I remember thinking it wasn;t a good idea, I remember reading something about shells or something, I just can;t remember and can;t find my reference. I have achieved long term success and seen no risk in feeding ghost shrimp, guppies, and mollies as live food.

When they are small it is about finding something small enough; ghost shrimp will just be luck of the draw, I get 200 a week, so I would search through for some small enough. Guppies are usually going to be fine and yes molly fry. I do not use saltwater feeders, the risk of spreading disease will be imminent. I keep my ghosties in fresh water; ghost shrimp can live across fresh to salt, I've never seen the advantage of getting saltwater shrimp. I keep my molly tank at 1.013, they are actually brackish fish and will do best in brackish water. So are guppies although they do thrive at a lower sg, maybe around 1.009 at the highest. There takes no special acclimation to feed them to you angler, jsut drop them in, you will be feeding on demand and they will be eaten right away. I've had ghosties living in observation tanks weeks later after removing the fish to the display, I currently have a molly living in my tessa tank for weeks, jsut dropped them in from the lfs freshwater. I've had guppies escape and find solace high up where the scorps can't catch them, live indefinitely. If you are acclimating your mollies from freshwater, you would not have to be concerned of the diseases that you would if you had brought a fish from a saltwater environment. I never really understood the fret of acclimating food, the main point is you are feeding on demand, it's not wise to jsut dump a bunch of food into an angler tank and let them manage their own feeding. I think I stressed how important it is not to overfeed. But the can also slowly stave to death overtime if not fed enough, a delicate balance. And YES, the reptile analogy is exact. Many people with reptile experience almost immediately get it, Whether it be feeding cycles or understanding nutrition, it is very similar.

 

[yellowfin-reef]

I've never used cherry shrimp and honestly not sure of the value or risk in feeding them. I really can't remember the specifics but I remember thinking it wasn;t a good idea, I remember reading something about shells or something, I just can;t remember and can;t find my reference. I have achieved long term success and seen no risk in feeding ghost shrimp, guppies, and mollies as live food.

When they are small it is about finding something small enough; ghost shrimp will just be luck of the draw, I get 200 a week, so I would search through for some small enough. Guppies are usually going to be fine and yes molly fry. I do not use saltwater feeders, the risk of spreading disease will be imminent. I keep my ghosties in fresh water; ghost shrimp can live across fresh to salt, I've never seen the advantage of getting saltwater shrimp. I keep my molly tank at 1.013, they are actually brackish fish and will do best in brackish water. So are guppies although they do thrive at a lower sg, maybe around 1.009 at the highest. There takes no special acclimation to feed them to you angler, jsut drop them in, you will be feeding on demand and they will be eaten right away. I've had ghosties living in observation tanks weeks later after removing the fish to the display, I currently have a molly living in my tessa tank for weeks, jsut dropped them in from the lfs freshwater. I've had guppies escape and find solace high up where the scorps can't catch them, live indefinitely. If you are acclimating your mollies from freshwater, you would not have to be concerned of the diseases that you would if you had brought a fish from a saltwater environment. I never really understood the fret of acclimating food, the main point is you are feeding on demand, it's not wise to jsut dump a bunch of food into an angler tank and let them manage their own feeding. I think I stressed how important it is not to overfeed. But the can also slowly stave to death overtime if not fed enough, a delicate balance. And YES, the reptile analogy is exact. Many people with reptile experience almost immediately get it, Whether it be feeding cycles or understanding nutrition, it is very similar.

My bad, I’ve done a lot of digging for threads and got one mixed up. And very informative on the feeders, and a solid point on the acclamation, I don’t bother to acclimate my stars because of the same reason, and yes def not going to over feed/ feed large items, I’m going to stay on the side of caution, and feed smaller items, and base feeding frequency off the size of the stomach. My plan is to have the feeder colony establish as well as the macro algae establish, this is mainly going to be a macro/softy tank, heavy on the macros

 

[yellowfin-reef]

I've never used cherry shrimp and honestly not sure of the value or risk in feeding them. I really can't remember the specifics but I remember thinking it wasn;t a good idea, I remember reading something about shells or something, I just can;t remember and can;t find my reference. I have achieved long term success and seen no risk in feeding ghost shrimp, guppies, and mollies as live food.

When they are small it is about finding something small enough; ghost shrimp will just be luck of the draw, I get 200 a week, so I would search through for some small enough. Guppies are usually going to be fine and yes molly fry. I do not use saltwater feeders, the risk of spreading disease will be imminent. I keep my ghosties in fresh water; ghost shrimp can live across fresh to salt, I've never seen the advantage of getting saltwater shrimp. I keep my molly tank at 1.013, they are actually brackish fish and will do best in brackish water. So are guppies although they do thrive at a lower sg, maybe around 1.009 at the highest. There takes no special acclimation to feed them to you angler, jsut drop them in, you will be feeding on demand and they will be eaten right away. I've had ghosties living in observation tanks weeks later after removing the fish to the display, I currently have a molly living in my tessa tank for weeks, jsut dropped them in from the lfs freshwater. I've had guppies escape and find solace high up where the scorps can't catch them, live indefinitely. If you are acclimating your mollies from freshwater, you would not have to be concerned of the diseases that you would if you had brought a fish from a saltwater environment. I never really understood the fret of acclimating food, the main point is you are feeding on demand, it's not wise to jsut dump a bunch of food into an angler tank and let them manage their own feeding. I think I stressed how important it is not to overfeed. But the can also slowly stave to death overtime if not fed enough, a delicate balance. And YES, the reptile analogy is exact. Many people with reptile experience almost immediately get it, Whether it be feeding cycles or understanding nutrition, it is very similar.

Question, I’ve being doing some digging, and stumbled across a statement I wanted your opinion on, it was that freshwater feeder have a different nutrition value then saltwater fish, my question is, does that mainly refer to goldfish and minnows, which are a big no due to the thymine content?

 

[lion king]

Question, I’ve being doing some digging, and stumbled across a statement I wanted your opinion on, it was that freshwater feeder have a different nutrition value then saltwater fish, my question is, does that mainly refer to goldfish and minnows, which are a big no due to the thymine content?

Yes that reference is in reference to goldfish and rosies. They contain a high amount of thiaminese and rosies will also cause bloat, a binding in the gut, this will cause death. Goldfish and rosies also contains the wrong fat profile, an imbalance in omega 3 and 6 as well as triglycerides and a much higher level. The fish I recommend are guppies and mollies, they are brackish fish from the same family of fish related to a wild diet for marine predators, Atherinidae. Mollies and guppies are benthic species, again the type of fish lionfish and such feed on in the wild; with a similar fat profile, equal values of omega 3 and 6, no triglycerides and no thiaminese. Most of what you read will be people just repeating what they have heard or read, with no understanding or practical experience. Many will have never kept an angler and if they have, it likely died quickly, yet they will offer advice. The diet recommendations I give have literally been fine tuned and researched over 30 years of keeping lionfish and other predators, successfully. The diet of the lionfish will work the same as with any predatory fish, ambush predator, any carnivore that lives on a fast/gorge feeding cycle in the wild. I have been using guppies and mollies for over 20 years in my predator's diet. I actually do keep these predators alive, many times as long as they live in the wild.

This is what you have to figure, you will have to make substitutions to their natural diet in captivity. You have to choose the safest, most accessible choices you can make. Anglers will not survive on a dead only diet, period! No one can honestly argue that, anyone that has tried the angler dies soon afterwards, usually within a few months. I have found in the case when a predator needs a live food option; ghosties, guppies, and mollies are the best choices. Any salt water fish will risk disease, and it will be just a matter of time. If you were to feed salt water fish, a benthic species like gobies, would be more in line with their natural diet than damsels or chromis, which is what some have used.

 

[yellowfin-reef]

Yes that reference is in reference to goldfish and rosies. They contain a high amount of thiaminese and rosies will also cause bloat, a binding in the gut, this will cause death. Goldfish and rosies also contains the wrong fat profile, an imbalance in omega 3 and 6 as well as triglycerides and a much higher level. The fish I recommend are guppies and mollies, they are brackish fish from the same family of fish related to a wild diet for marine predators, Atherinidae. Mollies and guppies are benthic species, again the type of fish lionfish and such feed on in the wild; with a similar fat profile, equal values of omega 3 and 6, no triglycerides and no thiaminese. Most of what you read will be people just repeating what they have heard or read, with no understanding or practical experience. Many will have never kept an angler and if they have, it likely died quickly, yet they will offer advice. The diet recommendations I give have literally been fine tuned and researched over 30 years of keeping lionfish and other predators, successfully. The diet of the lionfish will work the same as with any predatory fish, ambush predator, any carnivore that lives on a fast/gorge feeding cycle in the wild. I have been using guppies and mollies for over 20 years in my predator's diet. I actually do keep these predators alive, many times as long as they live in the wild.

Yes that reference is in reference to goldfish and rosies. They contain a high amount of thiaminese and rosies will also cause bloat, a binding in the gut, this will cause death. Goldfish and rosies also contains the wrong fat profile, an imbalance in omega 3 and 6 as well as triglycerides and a much higher level. The fish I recommend are guppies and mollies, they are brackish fish from the same family of fish related to a wild diet for marine predators, Atherinidae. Mollies and guppies are benthic species, again the type of fish lionfish and such feed on in the wild; with a similar fat profile, equal values of omega 3 and 6, no triglycerides and no thiaminese. Most of what you read will be people just repeating what they have heard or read, with no understanding or practical experience. Many will have never kept an angler and if they have, it likely died quickly, yet they will offer advice. The diet recommendations I give have literally been fine tuned and researched over 30 years of keeping lionfish and other predators, successfully. The diet of the lionfish will work the same as with any predatory fish, ambush predator, any carnivore that lives on a fast/gorge feeding cycle in the wild. I have been using guppies and mollies for over 20 years in my predator's diet. I actually do keep these predators alive, many times as long as they live in the wild.

Yes that reference is in reference to goldfish and rosies. They contain a high amount of thiaminese and rosies will also cause bloat, a binding in the gut, this will cause death. Goldfish and rosies also contains the wrong fat profile, an imbalance in omega 3 and 6 as well as triglycerides and a much higher level. The fish I recommend are guppies and mollies, they are brackish fish from the same family of fish related to a wild diet for marine predators, Atherinidae. Mollies and guppies are benthic species, again the type of fish lionfish and such feed on in the wild; with a similar fat profile, equal values of omega 3 and 6, no triglycerides and no thiaminese. Most of what you read will be people just repeating what they have heard or read, with no understanding or practical experience. Many will have never kept an angler and if they have, it likely died quickly, yet they will offer advice. The diet recommendations I give have literally been fine tuned and researched over 30 years of keeping lionfish and other predators, successfully. The diet of the lionfish will work the same as with any predatory fish, ambush predator, any carnivore that lives on a fast/gorge feeding cycle in the wild. I have been using guppies and mollies for over 20 years in my predator's diet. I actually do keep these predators alive, many times as long as they live in the wi

Yes that reference is in reference to goldfish and rosies. They contain a high amount of thiaminese and rosies will also cause bloat, a binding in the gut, this will cause death. Goldfish and rosies also contains the wrong fat profile, an imbalance in omega 3 and 6 as well as triglycerides and a much higher level. The fish I recommend are guppies and mollies, they are brackish fish from the same family of fish related to a wild diet for marine predators, Atherinidae. Mollies and guppies are benthic species, again the type of fish lionfish and such feed on in the wild; with a similar fat profile, equal values of omega 3 and 6, no triglycerides and no thiaminese. Most of what you read will be people just repeating what they have heard or read, with no understanding or practical experience. Many will have never kept an angler and if they have, it likely died quickly, yet they will offer advice. The diet recommendations I give have literally been fine tuned and researched over 30 years of keeping lionfish and other predators, successfully. The diet of the lionfish will work the same as with any predatory fish, ambush predator, any carnivore that lives on a fast/gorge feeding cycle in the wild. I have been using guppies and mollies for over 20 years in my predator's diet. I actually do keep these predators alive, many times as long as they live in the wild.

Thank you for the through and informative post, this is exactly why I wanted your input on this as I knew you would have the input on why that was thrown around. As I’m still in the researching phase, I’m trying to really nail down everything, really understand why things are done the way they are (as this is my first predatory fish) before going on to the build out/establishment of the the tank.
May I ask, how do you set up your filtration for a frog fish? Any type of media you would recommend in particular

 

[lion king]

Thank you for the through and informative post, this is exactly why I wanted your input on this as I knew you would have the input on why that was thrown around. As I’m still in the researching phase, I’m trying to really nail down everything, really understand why things are done the way they are (as this is my first predatory fish) before going on to the build out/establishment of the the tank.
May I ask, how do you set up your filtration for a frog fish? Any type of media you would recommend in particular

The Anatomy of a Predator Tank

I get many questions in regards to putting together a predator tank, so I thought I would put together some thoughts and guidelines to putting together a predator tank. First off my definition of a predator tank, means the fish are still living as predators in captivity, not be fed dead food as...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[yellowfin-reef]

The Anatomy of a Predator Tank

I get many questions in regards to putting together a predator tank, so I thought I would put together some thoughts and guidelines to putting together a predator tank. First off my definition of a predator tank, means the fish are still living as predators in captivity, not be fed dead food as...

www.reef2reef.com

I saw in one of your threads, you mentioned an hikari pellet ( it was on pellet stuffing frozen food)

Would you recommend that same pellet for live? If not, what food would you recommend for feeding fresh water feeders?

Also, I have read taht angles do not do well with medications, but I was curious about prazi pro, since so many come with parasites.

 

[Sump Crab]

I kept one many years ago but it quickly got boring IMO so I traded it back to the LFS. If you are ok with a fish that doesn’t do a whole bunch then go for it!

 

[lion king]

I saw in one of your threads, you mentioned an hikari pellet ( it was on pellet stuffing frozen food)

Would you recommend that same pellet for live? If not, what food would you recommend for feeding fresh water feeders?

Also, I have read taht angles do not do well with medications, but I was curious about prazi pro, since so many come with parasites.

I now get my pellets from a lfs that has them made and with a couple of exceptions with a specific purpose, I no longer recommend pellets. You'll have to read the ingredients and decide for yourself.

Anglers do not do well with meds, I would observe and only medicate if absolutely necessary. If they will not accept the appropriate live food, then the usage of general cure may be necessary. Split dose into 3rds and dose over as long as 24hrs, if tolerating well can dose each 3rd 4 hrs apart. Observe carefully.