Dino ID + Treatment

[Mas0n]

Hey R2R friends,

Welp… I got caught up chasing numbers and tried to lower my nitrate via vodka dosing and have instead caused a Dino outbreak.

My nutrient levels are currently elevated, and I’m no longer dosing vodka. .05 po4 and 33 ppm no3.

Here is what I found under the scope:

I am having a hard time distinguishing between Amphidinium and Prorocentrum. The little protrusions are not “beak like” as seen on the ID guide for Amphidinium and the body shape isn’t as point as many of the prorocentrum ID pictures I’ve seen.

The behavior matches Amphidinium in that they are only on the sand, not affecting coral/fish health and “retreat at night and slowly increase daily over the photo period.

Thoughts??

I’ve got some silicates and a test kit coming, along with some 1-5 micron socks to aid in manual removal.

 

[EnterName]

The community would refer to them as "Amphidinium", correct. There are a few genera that can't necessarily be distinguished from Amphidinium with light microscopy, so I'm careful with that name. But for all intents and purposes when it comes to treatment, you can go ahead with that ID.

In my opinion, seeing these cells is no reason not to use UV sterilizers. If you use a very fine plankton sieve (fine enough to catch them) at the water surface, you will catch plenty of cells, so they are absolutely leaving the substrate, even during the day.

 

[Mas0n]

The community would refer to them as "Amphidinium", correct. There are a few genera that can't necessarily be distinguished from Amphidinium with light microscopy, so I'm careful with that name. But for all intents and purposes when it comes to treatment, you can go ahead with that ID.

In my opinion, seeing these cells is no reason not to use UV sterilizers. If you use a very fine plankton sieve (fine enough to catch them) at the water surface, you will catch plenty of cells, so they are absolutely leaving the substrate, even during the day.

Thanks for the confirmation!

Maybe it’s time to get a UV then, I was going to wait since I don’t want to deal with plumbing right now lol!

 

[BryanM]

Thanks for the confirmation!

Maybe it’s time to get a UV then, I was going to wait since I don’t want to deal with plumbing right now lol!

The test if a dino can be treated by UV is really seeing if they disappear at night.

My quick google of Amphidinium dinos says that they do NOT go in to the water column, therefore would unfortunately be a poor candidate for this treatment.

 

[BryanM]

Let me correct the above a bit, there's small cell and large cell apparently, small cell version are swimmers, large cell are not.

This guide has a ton of helpful info:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/a-dinoflagellate-treatment-guide.841/

I wish you the best. I hate dinos.

 

[EnterName]

The test if a dino can be treated by UV is really seeing if they disappear at night.

My quick google of Amphidinium dinos says that they do NOT go in to the water column, therefore would unfortunately be a poor candidate for this treatment.

I don't think that's the whole story

For example, the community says Ostreopsis moves into the open water column at night and returns to the substrate during the day (e.g. see Dinoflagellate identification guide).

But if you take the time to pass water through a fine plankton sieve at any time, you will collect plenty of cells, and all of them are susceptible to UV sterilization. This is also backed by the scientific literature:
Pavaux et al. 2021 found decent cell densities of Ostreopsis cf. ovata (a potential candidate for the dinos we find in our tanks) in the open water column, both during the day and at night. There will certainly be differences in how effective a UV treatment is, but pretty much all benthic dinoflagellates have a planktonic "phase" where they swim more or less freely through the water column.

And it doesn't stop there. We are currently treating "Amphidinium-like" dinoflagellates as if they all behave the same. With light microscopy alone we can't even tell whether it's truly Amphidinium, Testudodinium or Paramphidinium. So we are potentially lumping together not only different strains and species, but even different genera.

The UV sterilizer won't hurt, even if it's less effective against some dinoflagellates than others. Even your linked article mentions other potential benefits of adding a UV sterilizer when dealing with "Amphidinium".

 

[Poseidon03]

I have had dinos 3 separate times and all 3 times I used the H2O2 method successfully with carbon. No water changes and just blowing it off the rock.

Just dose 1mL per 10 gal 2x per day, 12 hours apart. Run carbon for the toxic compounds.

 

[BryanM]

I don't think that's the whole story

For example, the community says Ostreopsis moves into the open water column at night and returns to the substrate during the day (e.g. see Dinoflagellate identification guide).

But if you take the time to pass water through a fine plankton sieve at any time, you will collect plenty of cells, and all of them are susceptible to UV sterilization. This is also backed by the scientific literature:
Pavaux et al. 2021 found decent cell densities of Ostreopsis cf. ovata (a potential candidate for the dinos we find in our tanks) in the open water column, both during the day and at night. There will certainly be differences in how effective a UV treatment is, but pretty much all benthic dinoflagellates have a planktonic "phase" where they swim more or less freely through the water column.

And it doesn't stop there. We are currently treating "Amphidinium-like" dinoflagellates as if they all behave the same. With light microscopy alone we can't even tell whether it's truly Amphidinium, Testudodinium or Paramphidinium. So we are potentially lumping together not only different strains and species, but even different genera.

The UV sterilizer won't hurt, even if it's less effective against some dinoflagellates than others. Even your linked article mentions other potential benefits of adding a UV sterilizer when dealing with "Amphidinium".

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say it was the whole story.

I hate dinos because they are very difficult to address successfully. I probably scraped, vacuumed, blacked out, dosed, etc, for almost 4 months before I finally got rid of my outbreak. During that time it was heartbreaking and soul crushing.

 

[Poseidon03]

Also what corals do you have? How old is the tank? How many fish? How much do you feed?

33ppm Nitrate and .05 phosphate is a pretty good number to stabilize for a long time.

 

[EnterName]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say it was the whole story.

I hate dinos because they are very difficult to address successfully. I probably scraped, vacuumed, blacked out, dosed, etc, for almost 4 months before I finally got rid of my outbreak. During that time it was heartbreaking and soul crushing.

All good, I know you meant well you always do judging from the posts I have seen so far! I hope my answer didn't come across the wrong way. I didn't mean to sound rude.

I just didn't want to discourage OP from using a tool that might still offer some help before they even tried it.

 

[BryanM]

All good, I know you meant well you always do judging from the posts I have seen so far! I hope my answer didn't come across the wrong way. I didn't mean to sound rude.

I just didn't want to discourage OP from using a tool that might still offer some help before they even tried it.

No worries.

I have a UV that I used for dinos, but I am changing my ways and converting it to a super low flow UV to see if it will help with bacteria for BJD. Googling seems to indicate it *MIGHT*, but then there's already the case where the bacteria i am trying to rid myself of is already in the torch or hammers. Either way, plumbed into my return at like 1600gph isn't going to target that stuff.

 

[Mas0n]

Also what corals do you have? How old is the tank? How many fish? How much do you feed?

33ppm Nitrate and .05 phosphate is a pretty good number to stabilize for a long time.

The tank has been up for 4 months (120g 4x2x2), but I started with ocean live rock and dry rock that I seeded for about a year in a brute.

Fish:
Flame Hawk
Yellow Tang
Tomini Tang
One Spot Fox Face
PJ Cardinal
Banded Sleeper Goby (for now... he is way too messy)

Feed 1/2 sheet of nori daily + assortment of pellets.

As for corals, I just have a few hammers currently. They are doing great. I will hold off on adding more until this issue has been resolved.