Dino questions

[tidefanjam]

Well I’ve been at this for 3 years and finally have the dreaded Dino’s, went on vacation for a week and they are here when I get back,pretty sure they are ost.
My parameters were
Phos.03
Nitrate 5
Alk 9.1
Ph 8.4
I dosed my phosphate to what should be .1
My nitrate to what should be 15, added some charcoal to help with the toxins because by birdsnest is already looking not too good, I’ve turned off my whites. Ordering a UV, anything else I should do? I have a lot of cheato in my fuge, should I remove it?

 

[tidefanjam]

And what size uv should I get? My tank is a 120

 

[Nick Steele]

I have been in this boat for over two months now. I almost got rid of them once when I upped my phos and nitrate to .06 and 5 respectively but then I skipped two feeds and they bottomed out again. I just ordered a UV to help put me over the edge and win this battle once and for all!

 

[King Turkey]

I kept my nitrate up as high as 25. Did not mess with my lights. I dosed waste away once a week. Than would test nitrate after 24 hours turn skimmer on and reajust to 25 nitrate. I kept algae scrubber going skimmer on carbon running. Took about 4 to 6 weeks. My birds nest was gone by week 1 but my scolly and chalice took it like a tank with minor tissue damage. Current photo of chalice.

 

[Nazarite01]

Hello,
Read my post I wrote about my experience with dinos and beat it. Let me know if you do it.
happy reefing.

 

[tidefanjam]

Could someone confirm my guess that they are Ostreopsis?

 

[King Turkey]

Hear you go gl

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

I don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info: some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[tidefanjam]

Could someone confirm my guess that they are Ostreopsis?

I’ve seriously gotta upgrade my microscope...

 

[vetteguy53081]

here is your best bet:
Before treatment, check your phosphate and nitrate to assure levels aren’t elevated
Blow loose with a turkey baster. It will capture and clean more surface area. Here is full program:
Prepare by starting with a water change and blow this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles.
Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15%) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off.
During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as bacter 7) per 10 gallons.
Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX as it is food for dinos.
Day 5,, you can start with blue lights - ramping up and work your white lights up slowly

 

[King Turkey]

I don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info:

• some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak
• how to avoid common dino outbreaks
• and what do if your tank is already having an outbreak

Let's get started!

Common Contributing Factors
Some of the most common factors that contribute to the dino outbreaks we cover in this thread are:

• the tank being new, rock being immature or the tank being otherwise highly disturbed, such as by other harsh tank treatments
• hard core nutrient reduction tools being used, such as
  • organic carbon dosing
  • excess "bio media"
  • algae filtration
  • nutrient adsorbing media like GFO

These four factors, or excess nutrient removal generally, play – usually in combination; rarely just one factor alone – pretty directly into dino's conversion to the blooming, phagotrophic, mat forming, toxin-producing side of their nature.

• Starvation Is Their Cue
  • Dino's seem to prefer life as autotrophic epiphytes on macro algae – chaeto morpha seems to be one of their favorite types to host in. (Maybe this fact can be useful to us; maybe sometimes chaeto ought not be used, or used with special consideration)
  • For several reasons, dino's seem to be terrible at nutrient uptake. This means they are more prone to starvation than many or most other microorganisms they have to compete with.....especially bacteria, which can scavenge free nutrients down to CRAZY low levels...low enough to starve out other microbes or algae.
  • With their protective mucus mats, potential to generate wicked toxins, and ability to survive not only by way of photosynthesis and dissolved nutrients, but alternately, when times get tough, by "eating their neighbors". (The least of their tricks.)
  • Dino's generally gain a competitive edge against their competitors AND their predators in a nutrient-starved environment. Keep reading!

How To Avoid Having A Dino Outbreak
In a nutshell, here's how to avoid dino outbreaks and begin to normalize your tank if you already have an outbreak:

• Phosphate Control
  • DO NOT let your phosphates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
• Nitrate Control
  • Do not let your nitrates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Putting the N in dinoflagellates
  • See: A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
• Starvation conditions (zero or near-zero nitrate or phosphate levels) should be avoided.
  • Keep in mind that dissolved nutrients are not "waste products" to be eliminated
  • They are nutrients for the critters you care about like corals
  • The are also nutrients for a potential multitude of mostly-unknown/anonymous microbes that are needed to bring stability to a new tank.
  • Once excess nutrients have an impact, in fact, they usually can't be simply eliminated with media anyway – they've probably already had an impact on the tank's microbial cycle. (See blog link #3 at bottom.)
  • This all adds up to skipping almost all "extra" nutrient removing steps during the tank's initial development. This period seems to be especially critical, and longer in a tank started with dry, dead rock. Don't use anything until it's absolutely needed and other options have been fully exhausted...and be conservative with how you apply any nutrient removing tool.

What to do if you're tank is already having a dino outbreak
When attempting to control an organism like a dinoflagellate, confirming the ID will help, if possible:

• So to begin with, make sure you have Dinos – you should have multiple factors at work...these factors were mentioned in the first section above. The less these factors seem to describe your tank, the less likely any of this advice will be correct for your situation – so post questions!
  • no special equipment is needed to confirm whether your algae sample has dino's and/or other algae
  • Use @taricha's dino confirmation guide on posts #986-987.
• Once you have confirmed that you have dino's you should ideally figure out what type(s) your tank is hosting. (Multiple species blooms seem almost as common as single-strain blooms.)
  • A basic 1200x microscope will be useful and doesn't have to be fancier than a $15 toy scope. Even a $50 scope is a lot nicer, if you think you might be more serious about it.
  • See: Selecting a microscope for more discussion.

• Compare your dino's with photos where @taricha and @Beardo have already made ID's:
• (Click the link. Then click the SEARCHbutton at the bottom of the search page.)
  • ostreopsis
    • Consider focusing first on posts #86 and #905
  • prorocentrum
  • amphidinium
    • Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods (they are unique and somewhat more experimental)
  • coolia
  • (other searches coming)

• Extra Measures
  Generally, these tools will give extra control in terms of removing and/or killing cells in the water column....usually, along with other measures explained here, expediting the close of the dino bloom.
  • UV
    You can find discussions throughout the thread by using this search, with a great breakout of spec's on post #3770.
  • Diatom Filtration
    Effective, but not that popular. The more common units like the classic Vortex are somewhat difficult to use, and the newer units like the new Marineland Polishing Filter are relatively unknown. Still worthy of consideration.

So, after you get a measure of control, make sure you read What is the End Game?

Miscellaneous Goodies

• Post #2725 has a great diary of tank observations, test results and time-series graphs during the treatment for dino's from one of our members.
• Disturbances we cause in our tanksare what allow microbial/algal populations to shift and ugly/harmful blooms to happen.
  • See: Evidence for the Existence of Three Primary Strategies in Plants and Its Relevance to Ecological and Evolutionary Theory

• Take measures to assure that your feeding system is very consistent. An auto-feeder is an overlooked tool on most tanks. Look at Eheim's feeders...set them on low with high quality flake food. Just don't let them run your whole feeding program as flake isn't great food.

• Find out what inconsistencies you can eliminate with your husbandry to prevent more unneeded disturbances and the resulting microbial/algal changes. This could be changes to lighting or water chemistry – make them as consistent as you can.

• E.g. If you're adding new livestock all the time, stop it. If you have a color-tunable light fixture, stop re-tuning the colors. If you don't have an ATO keeping your salinity stable, get one. If you're still managing your dosing by hand, get an $80 4-head doser. Etc.

• If you provide the stability, then your dino's competitors will start competing with them and their predators will start eating them!!

• One thing that seems to help things progress is to stop scraping down the algae off your glass....once the dino's start giving up space that is. Mechanical removal is a legit short-term strategy and might help give competitors a leg up too.

2¢

Other interesting more-or-less related links on my blog:

1. The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate
2. Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom
3. Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication

(Also cross-posted in the old Dino thread!)

 

[tidefanjam]

here is your best bet:
Before treatment, check your phosphate and nitrate to assure levels aren’t elevated
Blow loose with a turkey baster. It will capture and clean more surface area. Here is full program:
Prepare by starting with a water change and blow this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles.
Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15%) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off.
During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as bacter 7) per 10 gallons.
Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX as it is food for dinos.
Day 5,, you can start with blue lights - ramping up and work your white lights up slowly

what are you considering elevated for phos and nitrate? my understanding was they should be brought up for battling dinos, mine were .03 and 5 and i have them at .1 and 10 now.

 

[vetteguy53081]

what are you considering elevated for phos and nitrate? my understanding was they should be brought up for battling dinos, mine were .03 and 5 and i have them at .1 and 10 now.

I run lower phos in my tanks. For dino, you need to remove the elements that support dino and when I had a huge outbreak in a 660g, I lowered phos to .o3 and left nitrate at .05. and had that dino gone in 6 days.
With high Phos, many after dino experience Cyano.

 

[King Turkey]

Except dinos will start to eat corals and take up the trace elements in theory if they have no phosphate or nitrate to eat up I'm some forms of dinos. Hard to say seems many people have been successful with different methods. I would read the form I posted and ask some questions they are more of the experts than I I am just repeating what they told me and worked for me. Idk gl I'm out.