Dinoflagellates and Trace elements

[ctcarper]

I purchased a 260 and have been been running for quite sometime. I’ve recently had a breakout of Dinos and have done a lot to get rid of them.

Question: I was wondering if dosing Trident base 7 outside refuge if the trace or core elements could be fueling the regrowth.

I’ve been trying to think about the root cause and the only thing I could think of was the move of our dosing tubes and placement due to rebuild of Apex environment. Reading all the triton docs it says to DOS in refugium but thought I’d ask the question here. I’m still dosing in my sump just not directly in the refuge. I’m planning to move the tubes anyway but wanted to see what others thought?

 

[Deep]

I think everyone will want to know - how old is the tank, did you start with dry rock, what are your water parameters incl Nitrates and phospates ? Also you mention regrowth - so have you had dinos earlier ?
Also have you IDed the type of Dinos you have ?

 

[ctcarper]

Thanks Deep. Not trying to solve the Dino problem here, but the tank is over 2 years old and have not had the issue until after I moved the dosing units. My phosphates and nitrates dropped to zero which I knew was an issue and brought them up and have been dosing cocapods to help starve the Dino out along with a bunch of other things (blackout etc.).. I did identify the Dino with a microscope as well and feel like I have it under control. (At least for now ) I was just wondering if the DOS placement matters and could be the fuel for Dinos if not dosed directly in refuge. Thinking about preventative maintenance.

 

[Deep]

I would think where you dose trace elements will have little do with the Dinos.

 

[ctcarper]

Thank you, just trying to get opinions here on DOS and was just curious as it’s been a battle and wanted to eliminate any/all sources for the future.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do think that in some cases, trace elements will help spur a dino problem.

I base this on two things:

1. Many folks have noticed that water changes seem to cause dino problems to worsen.

2. The primary theory (IMO) for low nutrient dino issues is that the low nutrients deter something that is otherwise competing with the dinos. That other organism (algae, bacteria, etc.) may be competing with the dinos for one or more trace elements (though it might be space, too) and adding those trace elements back eliminates that competition.

 

[taricha]

Here's where @andrewey did a bit of a test to show dinos responding to Iron supplementation.
Rapid growth of dinos followed the dose of Fe, but not Iodide or Silica.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/iron-silica-and-iodine-and-dinoflagellates.726064/

 

[ctcarper]

Thanks for the feedback, I agree on the water changes with dinos. I thought it would help but quickly realized it was spreading them as I did several and I noticed them in the sand pretty rapidly right after.

 

[ctcarper]

I was able to get rid of my dino problem by slowly raising the temp to 83.5, and adding competition with Algea Barns Ocean Magik dosed every day for two weeks. I also removed trace elements (was dosing Core 7) and moved to just Alk and Ca only after several water changes.

 

[ClownSchool]

I purchased a 260 and have been been running for quite sometime. I’ve recently had a breakout of Dinos and have done a lot to get rid of them.

Question: I was wondering if dosing Trident base 7 outside refuge if the trace or core elements could be fueling the regrowth.

I’ve been trying to think about the root cause and the only thing I could think of was the move of our dosing tubes and placement due to rebuild of Apex environment. Reading all the triton docs it says to DOS in refugium but thought I’d ask the question here. I’m still dosing in my sump just not directly in the refuge. I’m planning to move the tubes anyway but wanted to see what others thought?

I’m still in my first year and someone told me about Chemi-Pure Blue and it has been awesome! My Dino problem was so bad, I was cleaning the glass twice a day and starting to see a GHA bloom, but since using Chemi-Pure Blue filter packs, the dinos are almost gone and the GHA IS BROWNING AND ‘melting’ from my Live Rock.
so, I hope that helps.

 

[blasterman]

Since there is no concensus on trace elements in the reefing industry nor what constitutes a trace element nor what percent of said trace element should be in our tanks I want to voice my usual opposition to its claims.

I could claim anything is a trace element, throw it in a bottle and sell it as "Reef beneficial trace elements".

What we do seem to agree on with dinos is that low nutrient or nutrient dives cause them and that there has been some success out competing them with biologic additives.

When you do a water change you strip nitrate from your tank....which is why water changes are so often used to reduce nitrate. So, its perfectly logical to connect the dots why water changes would exasperate dino problems

 

[Dan_P]

I purchased a 260 and have been been running for quite sometime. I’ve recently had a breakout of Dinos and have done a lot to get rid of them.

Question: I was wondering if dosing Trident base 7 outside refuge if the trace or core elements could be fueling the regrowth.

I’ve been trying to think about the root cause and the only thing I could think of was the move of our dosing tubes and placement due to rebuild of Apex environment. Reading all the triton docs it says to DOS in refugium but thought I’d ask the question here. I’m still dosing in my sump just not directly in the refuge. I’m planning to move the tubes anyway but wanted to see what others thought?

It is possible to stimulate dinoflagellate, cyanobacteria and algae growth by adding micro nutrients. Recall the warning “to avoid water changes during dinoflagellate”. The directions about where to dose the nutrients sound arbitrary. I just cannot think of a reason it could possibly matter.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since there is no concensus on trace elements in the reefing industry nor what constitutes a trace element nor what percent of said trace element should be in our tanks I want to voice my usual opposition to its claims.

I could claim anything is a trace element, throw it in a bottle and sell it as "Reef beneficial trace elements".

What we do seem to agree on with dinos is that low nutrient or nutrient dives cause them and that there has been some success out competing them with biologic additives.

When you do a water change you strip nitrate from your tank....which is why water changes are so often used to reduce nitrate. So, its perfectly logical to connect the dots why water changes would exasperate dino problems

I'm not sure that's the explanation, but certainly if nitrate is very low, water changes will worsen the situation.

i still think the competition for trace elements may be an important part of the issue.

On what is a trace element, there certainly is an exact scientific definition, but I do agree it is widely misused and/or abused by reefers. It really annoys me when folks use the term to describe elements such as magnesium, which, as major ions, are actually the opposite of a trace element.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m still in my first year and someone told me about Chemi-Pure Blue and it has been awesome! My Dino problem was so bad, I was cleaning the glass twice a day and starting to see a GHA bloom, but since using Chemi-Pure Blue filter packs, the dinos are almost gone and the GHA IS BROWNING AND ‘melting’ from my Live Rock.
so, I hope that helps.

Are you sure you are talking about dinoflagellates? Not cyanobacteria or something else? Reducing nutrients is not typically a solution for dinos, and they most often are not on glass (although that might often be because folks clean glass and not the sand and rocks).

 

[ClownSchool]

Are you sure you are talking about dinoflagellates? Not cyanobacteria or something else? Reducing nutrients is not typically a solution for dinos, and they most often are not on glass (although that might often be because folks clean glass and not the sand and rocks).

My apology. I confused it with diatoms...sorry

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My apology. I confused it with diatoms...sorry

No problem. Happy reefing.

 

[Panicked Reefer]

I'm not sure that's the explanation, but certainly if nitrate is very low, water changes will worsen the situation.

i still think the competition for trace elements may be an important part of the issue.

On what is a trace element, there certainly is an exact scientific definition, but I do agree it is widely misused and/or abused by reefers. It really annoys me when folks use the term to describe elements such as magnesium, which, as major ions, are actually the opposite of a trace element.

I am dealing with dinos for a second time. I am unsure of what type. I don't have access to a microscope. I believe this 2nd round is visually the same issue I was previously dealing with. I originally thought this 2nd bought was caused by dosing AB+ for the first time as it appeared extremely shortly after I dosed it. It's my understanding that aminos can feed dinos. After some more reading I am rethinking this. I'm sure I'm the amino didn't help, I am now wondering if it was the re introduction of chaeto. Could it be that the cheato is stripping one or more of my trace elements? In retrospect the first round was about 2 weeks after I introduced chaeto and this current outbreak was right at 2 weeks after introduced of chaeto also. On the first go around I had zero n03 and p04 and I was able to curb it by 3 day black out, raising my nutrients, and dosing MB7. My n03 is 10/15ppm and my p04 is .2 at this time, I only dosed ab+ and stopped about a week ago at first sign of it. The dino is currently increasing in my tank. Actually it appears to have gotten worse quicker now that I have stopped the AB+. Worth mentioning, both times I put chaeto in it did not increase in size. It looks healthy with no signs of die off but doesn't grow. I am basing this off of visual observation and weighing it. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could it be that the cheato is stripping one or more of my trace elements? In retrospect the first round was about 2 weeks after I introduced chaeto and this current outbreak was right at 2 weeks after introduced of chaeto also

I don't think reducing trace elements spurs dinos. Reducing nutrients to the point where other organisms no longer outcompete the dinos can, but that does not appear to be the case.

 

[Panicked Reefer]

I don't think reducing trace elements spurs dinos. Reducing nutrients to the point where other organisms no longer outcompete the dinos can, but that does not appear to be the case.

Yeah, the first time I had them I thought it was the absence of nutrients. Now that I have it agian with what I believe is a sufficient amount of nutrients I am at a loss as to a cause and plan to treat it. It's my understanding that increasing nutrients is to fortify a competing algae to over come the dinos ability to thrive. While I no longer saw the dinos I also only saw a very slight increase in a green algae on my rocks. Nothing like I would have expected. I'm a bit confused by all of this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yeah, the first time I had them I thought it was the absence of nutrients. Now that I have it agian with what I believe is a sufficient amount of nutrients I am at a loss as to a cause and plan to treat it. It's my understanding that increasing nutrients is to fortify a competing algae to over come the dinos ability to thrive. While I no longer saw the dinos I also only saw a very slight increase in a green algae on my rocks. Nothing like I would have expected. I'm a bit confused by all of this.

Explanations of why there is algae or dinos or whatever are always just guesses, and there's no exact single reason folks get these sorts of problems.