DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

[John Biddle]

I don’t see a reason to think there will be buildup. I think if you tried to keep ammonia at 0.1 ppm, nitrate will be rising rapidly.

I’m not sure what time of day is best, or if it matters.

I'm continuing to dose vodka and vinegar to keep NO3 under control, and if I'm successful (so far so good), it seems that more ammonium consumption by corals would be a plus. I suppose there's a limit where too much might cause algae or bacteria blooms, but I was just looking for a way to safely get close to maximizing ammonium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm continuing to dose vodka and vinegar to keep NO3 under control, and if I'm successful (so far so good), it seems that more ammonium consumption by corals would be a plus. I suppose there's a limit where too much might cause algae or bacteria blooms, but I was just looking for a way to get close to safely get close to maximizing ammonium.

The only way to proceed is to dose and monitor. There’s no way to calculate ammonia consumption rates.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Is there a point where one hits critical mass? Similar to phosphate and dry rock. I’m pretty sure the answer is no, but I definitely hit a wall (after six months of dialed in dosing) where all of a sudden my nitrate has jumped up. I was maintaining a stable 10ppm (plus or minus) no3 this entire time. This last month it jumped to 30ppm (I say jump but I’ve only been testing once a month as it’s been so stable, so crept up over 30 days is more accurate). I’ve had to reduce my ammonium dosing by half to get a very slight downward movement on nitrate. No changes have been made to feeding, livestock, alkalinity, ph, etc.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you dose more N than organisms want to take up, nitrate will rise. In this case, perhaps something else (phosphate, a trace element, alkalinity, pH, etc), is now the limiting factor for growth, and so the N dosed is larger than it needs to be.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

If you dose more N than organisms want to take up, nitrate will rise. In this case, perhaps something else (phosphate, a trace element, alkalinity, pH, etc), is now the limiting factor for growth, and so the N dosed is larger than it needs to be.

Gotcha, thanks Thant makes sense. I’m not testing for any trace. Phosphate, alkalinity, ph, salinity, calcium, magnesium have been solid with only minor variations. Ph ranges from 8-8.4, Alk 8.5-9.3dkh, phosphate 0.14-0.23ppm, ca 380-437ppm, mg 1270-1380ppm, sg 1.026 (that’s the lowest and highest recordings over the last five months for each). Of course those numbers are arbitrary being hobby tests with human involvement but they are consistent. I was just curious if there was a possibility of saturation with everything seemingly so stable but I didn’t even think about trace elements possibly being a factor. Ah, could warfare (not noticing any spike in Alk to point to decreased growth) have an effect? I think several corals may be growing into each other. I started running carbon last week as I noticed some itching on my arm after it was in the tank for maintenance.

 

[John Biddle]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Since I'm using vinegar as well as vodka for a carbon source, and am dosing Ammonium Bicarbonate, if I combine the vinegar and ammonium carbonate and bubble off the co2 as you mentioned in an earlier post, would that mitigate the downward effect the vinegar has on pH?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Since I'm using vinegar as well as vodka for a carbon source, and am dosing Ammonium Bicarbonate, if I combine the vinegar and ammonium carbonate and bubble off the co2 as you mentioned in an earlier post, would that mitigate the downward effect the vinegar has on pH?

I think it depends on the relative amounts of the two, but it will reduce the immediate pH drop somewhat.

 

[jazzman7838]

Thanks Randy for this very useful thread, and for your countless contributions to the hobby in general.

Any idea what concentration of ammonia in an ATO with just DI water will inhibit a cycle from forming in the vessel and converting it all to nitrate? Have people who add the ammonia to their ATO been testing it to see if this is occurring?

I haven’t started adding any ammonia yet, but if I were to add 0.3 ppm per day that translates in my case to a concentration of 19 ppm in the ATO vessel. I plan on testing it with a kit every week until I’m satisfied it’s all working properly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t think di water plus ammonia will readily cycle due to the lack of salts and elements.

 

[drawman]

A little over 3 months in and this is an absolute game changer. I dose anywhere from 10-20ml, 4-5 times a week when I remember. I haven’t checked N and P recently but when I first started I kept track. My PO4 dropped from .4ppm to .2ppm in the first couple weeks. My NO3 went from 0 to 10ppm and held flat. I need to test again and see where everything is but my corals have shown marked color and growth improvement across the board.

I can tell I’ve forgotten to dose for a few days when a light dusting of brown starts to creep up on the sand. Dose ammonia for a few days and it all goes away. My theory when this happens is that nitrogen is becoming super limited and it’s likely a strain of dinos trying to pop up. Get some nitrogen back in the tank and the dinos can’t out compete other organisms.

This is great to hear. When you say you dose 4-5 times per week I am assuming it's just one bolus dose a day?

Thanks Randy for this very useful thread, and for your countless contributions to the hobby in general.

Any idea what concentration of ammonia in an ATO with just DI water will inhibit a cycle from forming in the vessel and converting it all to nitrate? Have people who add the ammonia to their ATO been testing it to see if this is occurring?

I haven’t started adding any ammonia yet, but if I were to add 0.3 ppm per day that translates in my case to a concentration of 19 ppm in the ATO vessel. I plan on testing it with a kit every week until I’m satisfied it’s all working properly.

I don’t think di water plus ammonia will readily cycle due to the lack of salts and elements.

I've been wondering this as well. I tend to get a slime buildup at the bottom of my RODI vessel and ATO container that I can only assume is a bacterial buildup. I would worry that the ammonia would move through the nitrogen cycle.

@Randy Holmes-Farley how long do you think an ammonium chloride stock solution (covered of course) will last? I made one up many months ago but stopped using it after a few days. Maybe I should mix up a new container to be on the safe side but I'm still curious how long it should be expected to last.

In my case I've had chronically low NO3/PO4 levels and corals never seem to respond well to dosing either. I will be trying to raise my PO4 via TM Phos-Feed then once I'm at a higher level I may try the ammonia dosing again. I have a couple of very pale acros that I am curious if they will rebound with this. I'll try to record with photos.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is great to hear. When you say you dose 4-5 times per week I am assuming it's just one bolus dose a day?



I've been wondering this as well. I tend to get a slime buildup at the bottom of my RODI vessel and ATO container that I can only assume is a bacterial buildup. I would worry that the ammonia would move through the nitrogen cycle.

@Randy Holmes-Farley how long do you think an ammonium chloride stock solution (covered of course) will last? I made one up many months ago but stopped using it after a few days. Maybe I should mix up a new container to be on the safe side but I'm still curious how long it should be expected to last.

In my case I've had chronically low NO3/PO4 levels and corals never seem to respond well to dosing either. I will be trying to raise my PO4 via TM Phos-Feed then once I'm at a higher level I may try the ammonia dosing again. I have a couple of very pale acros that I am curious if they will rebound with this. I'll try to record with photos.

The slime may remove some ammonia, but since dosing is largely by trial and error anyway, I expect the concern is minimal. If you have an ammonia kit, the easiest thing to do is measure it when you make it, and then when the container is nearly used up and see how much it declines.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

If you dose more N than organisms want to take up, nitrate will rise. In this case, perhaps something else (phosphate, a trace element, alkalinity, pH, etc), is now the limiting factor for growth, and so the N dosed is larger than it needs to be.

I’m thinking that warfare was the root of the drop off in consumption. As this response triggered that “oh yeah my arms have been itching every time I clean that stubborn glass algae” light bulb in my brain (albeit very dim and flickering). I set up ozone, into my skimmer until I get help with a reactor. I’ve only been running it a couple days but my arms no longer itch or feel slimy when cleaning and my nitrate has dropped. Not having much vision or dexterity I tried to figure out what all is encroaching each other. As always I managed to accidentally break off several acro branches that I hit with my hand. I have a bit of montipora covering the bottom (bare bottom) and I was able to chip away quite a bit where they were growing into and over each other. I can’t tell if these last 6 months of ammonium chloride in place of sodium nitrate has made any improvement but nothing bad has happened whatsoever but here’s some pics from today….probably blurry and not focused

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m thinking that warfare was the root of the drop off in consumption.

That's certainly possible.

 

[drawman]

Just made a new stock solution of ammonium chloride using 3 tsp in 750mL. Some of it was clumped so it was an eyeball of 3 tsp.

Plan is to dose 1mL 2x/day to my 50-60 gallon reef. Just did the first dose tonight.

I've been raising my PO4 (checked yesterday at 0.07ppm) and will be keeping a close eye on it.

 

[jazzman7838]

I don’t think di water plus ammonia will readily cycle due to the lack of salts and elements.

Randy, what do you think about the same situation but adding trisodium phosphate to the mix?

My ATO is DI water with an ammonia concentration of 20 ppm and a phosphate concentration of 7 ppm.

If bacteria were able to grow in this weird soup, I suppose I’d still be dosing nitrogen and phosphorus but just possibly in a different form?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, what do you think about the same situation but adding trisodium phosphate to the mix?

My ATO is DI water with an ammonia concentration of 20 ppm and a phosphate concentration of 7 ppm.

If bacteria were able to grow in this weird soup, I suppose I’d still be dosing nitrogen and phosphorus but just possibly in a different form?

You mean ammonia and phosphate together ? That may grow algae, and is more likely to grow bacteria. Will that happen, I don’t know.

 

[lpramos]

I'm dosing Ammonium Hydroxide (AH). No matter what I do, I get "air" in the dosing lines. My question is, does AH offgas?

I use Alliance Chemical Reagent Grade 29% AH. Mix is 10g AH to 270g RODI. RODI is 7 stage BRS that was new on 5/22/23. GHL Doser 2.1 with all new lines and fittings. Dosing lines are GHL silicone. I zip tied and used Dow Molykote 111 inside and on joints to prevent air leaks. The hose that goes in the reservoir has no fittings, just the tube in the liquid. Reservoir claims to be food safe #2 HDPE plastic lab tested for no BPA. I see percipitation forming inside the reservoir.

I have replaced lines, reconnected and resealed three times now. Is the AH offgassing? Is one of my plastics reacting with the AH? Is the sun or the heat a factor? I'm at a loss on the "air" inside the lines. Any ideas are welcome.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm dosing Ammonium Hydroxide (AH). No matter what I do, I get "air" in the dosing lines. My question is, does AH offgas?

I use Alliance Chemical Reagent Grade 29% AH. Mix is 10g AH to 270g RODI. RODI is 7 stage BRS that was new on 5/22/23. GHL Doser 2.1 with all new lines and fittings. Dosing lines are GHL silicone. I zip tied and used Dow Molykote 111 inside and on joints to prevent air leaks. The hose that goes in the reservoir has no fittings, just the tube in the liquid. Reservoir claims to be food safe #2 HDPE plastic lab tested for no BPA. I see percipitation forming inside the reservoir.

I have replaced lines, reconnected and resealed three times now. Is the AH offgassing? Is one of my plastics reacting with the AH? Is the sun or the heat a factor? I'm at a loss on the "air" inside the lines. Any ideas are welcome.

Ammonia will off gas from ammonium hydroxide. I don’t think it will form ammonia bubbles, however, unless it gets very warm. Switching to one of the two recipes described here will reduce off gassing.

 

[lpramos]

Thanks Randy!

 

[drawman]

Ammonia will off gas from ammonium hydroxide. I don’t think it will form ammonia bubbles, however, unless it gets very warm. Switching to one of the two recipes described here will reduce off gassing.

Randy I just want to confirm that I didn't read it wrong but will both recipes be net neutral on pH and alkalinity? I'm using ammonium chloride but if bicarbonate is better for pH or different with alk I may consider switching.