Do commercially available bacteria supplements work?

[Aeiyr]

One could argue that keeping fish with just bottled bacteria has questionable ethics for most fish taken from the ocean with now way for the tank to fight disease. The things that come on rock do eat ich tomonts.

I would lean toward agreeing with this. But if we look at the question from the most basic level of you need bacteria as the absolute first step in the nitrogen cycle, then I would say yes: Bottled products DO work. To compound on that we have things like pods, rotifers, phyto etc. we can add in later and just keep building those diverse blocks of the ecosytstem. If only there were more sellers for things like nano brittle stars, bristleworms, and all the other little helpful goodies that we mostly rely on coral hitch hiking for. now THAT's a product I'd be interested in buying. A controlled, simple, and reliable way to add those pieces of the grand puzzle would be great.

 

[jda]

ipsf.com sells packs of microfauna to seed tanks. Well beyond what you can buy in a bottle, but likely not as much as you get on actual ocean rock.

In all truth, the bottled bacteria only really does anything until the gut bacteria from the fish take hold. The fish gut bacteria contribute more diversity than bottles ever can.

In the end, there is no substitute for real ocean rock. Some tanks might get there eventually if they buy enough wild corals that are collected on small rocks or have large skeletons.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

By work, I mean, are the bacteria viable and living, and are they useful species?

Brightwell has an entire line which does not require refrigeration - Microbackter7, Microbacter Clean, etc.

Dr. Tim famously has his line of start up and maintenance geared bacteria.

Ftitz is another one, which interestingly, seems to require the most care (most companies in Canada require overnight shipping when purchasing).

The Parable of the Bacteria in a Bottle

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I would lean toward agreeing with this. But if we look at the question from the most basic level of you need bacteria as the absolute first step in the nitrogen cycle, then I would say yes: Bottled products DO work. To compound on that we have things like pods, rotifers, phyto etc. we can add in later and just keep building those diverse blocks of the ecosytstem. If only there were more sellers for things like nano brittle stars, bristleworms, and all the other little helpful goodies that we mostly rely on coral hitch hiking for. now THAT's a product I'd be interested in buying. A controlled, simple, and reliable way to add those pieces of the grand puzzle would be great.

The first step in the nitrogen cycle? You do mean nitrification? Or do you mean the production of NH3 from organics, proteins.? As most autotrophic bacteria do not have the capability to form endospores it is very unlikely they will be able to reproduce after being in a closed bottle for a period of time.
All life does carry its own bacteria, its own holobiont.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

if one want bacteria just add one alive mussel. When the water is cleared up after some time one will have all bacteria needed to condition a new set up. And then one should remove the mussel, dead or alive.

 

[Aeiyr]

The first step in the nitrogen cycle? You do mean nitrification? Or do you mean the production of NH3 from organics, proteins.? As most autotrophic bacteria do not have the capability to form endospores it is very unlikely they will be able to reproduce after being in a closed bottle for a period of time.
All life does carry its own bacteria, its own holobiont.

I was referring to the first stage of bacteria oxidizing ammonia and creating nitrite, and so forth.

 

[Aeiyr]

if one want bacteria just add one alive mussel. When the water is cleared up after some time one will have all bacteria needed to condition a new set up. And then one should remove the mussel, dead or alive.

You're essentially talking about a fish/creature-in cycle then. And while yes it works, many people choose not to put an animal through it. I'm not going to get into a morality debate regarding the ethics of using a live animal to start a cycle. If you want to, go nuts. It works for a reason and that's fine. I don't do it as a personal choice, and that's fine too.

This thread began to discuss whether or not bottled dormant bacteria products work, and it would seem like a large majority have seen success with them at varying speeds.

 

[jda]

Work threads with skip mussel new cycle science. I am kidding, of course.

What makes it so hard to determine if they actually work is that first piece that Belgian is speaking to is the easiest part and will eventually get right if you have any modicum of patience. Many of the victories claimed likely came from elsewhere and nobody would even know the difference. Who cares, right? The bottle did not likely hurt anything. It is a bad physic telling people that one of their parents are in the room and they have unresolved issues to speak about.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I was referring to the first stage of bacteria oxidizing ammonia and creating nitrite, and so forth.

In that case you are talking about autotrophic bacteria AOB , amonia oxydizing bacteria, and NOB, nitrite oxidizing bacteria, needing oxygen to stay alive and which do not have the ability to go into a dormant state. None of them will form endospore. There are also heterotrophic ammonia oxidizers some maybe able to survive in a dormant state but they only are useful if there is no organic material available to be used as a nitrogen source and of coarse need a lot of oxygen. They oxidize ammonia in survival mode and have very little importance for the nitrogen cycle in a marine aquarium. More important are AOA, ammonia oxidizing archaea, which play an important role in marine aquarium biofilters and for the nitrogen cycle. Which type of AOB, NOB or AOA do you expect to be present in a closed bottle? Or maybe you need anammox bacteria, this way avoiding the production of nitrous oxide? Alive bacteria present probably will be anaerobes using organics from dead aerobic bacteria such as AOB, NOB and AOA or and anaerobic sulfur bacteria. Maybe you can ask the question what exactly is in the bottle before buying it and ask if you will be refunded if the content is not corresponding the needs. Once added into a new setup aquarium you will never know what was the content as most bacteria present will be those growing on the biomass added.
Bacteria in a bottle? My opinion it is a dogma kept alive for those believers wanting to spend money on something what will be provided by nature for free.

 

[bushdoc]

"Bacteria in a bottle? My opinion it is a dogma kept alive for those believers wanting to spend money on something what will be provided by nature for free."
I hope that tentacles of Bacteria in the bottle cartels are not long enough to reach Belgium :winking-face:

 

[Dan_P]

By work, I mean, are the bacteria viable and living, and are they useful species?

Brightwell has an entire line which does not require refrigeration - Microbackter7, Microbacter Clean, etc.

Dr. Tim famously has his line of start up and maintenance geared bacteria.

Ftitz is another one, which interestingly, seems to require the most care (most companies in Canada require overnight shipping when purchasing).

They seem to be snake oil. No one to date has presented any data beyond anecdotal that the bacteria have any effect. The fact that you have to keep dosing the bacteria suggests they are dead or never take hold in the aquarium.

Bottled nitrifying bacteria is the only exception. They work. What they do can be measued.

Don’t waste your money onsuch a product.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Bottled nitrifying bacteria is the only exception. They work. What they do can be measued.

Don’t waste your money onsuch a product.

And which bottled AOB or and NOB and clades will be the only exeption? And what about archaea?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

One does need bacteria and clades able to form biofilms. Maybe one should put a biofilm into a bottle?
For effective nitrification you do need all types of bacteria creating a biofilm. In a normal nitrifying biofilm +- 40% of bacteria present will be anaerobic and only a relative small amount will be nitrifiers . For effective remineralisation and nitrification one does need all bacteria , not only nitrifiers.

Nitrogen management starts with the food source, the protein content. More protein means more ammonia will be left over after remineralisation of the feed needing more nitrifiers to avoid toxic levels of ammonia., meaning more nitrate must be produced The first bacteria you need are the reducers who will consume ammonia as long organic carbon and all other essential buildingmaterials are available. If enough organic carbon is available in the feed one does not need nitrifiers. But one has to harvest growth. Heterotops produce 40x more biomass compared to nitrifiers to reduce the same amount of ammonia-nitrogen.
Nitrifiers in a bottle for sure can be a good start for introducing organics but there are other possible ways.

If one can obtain parts of fresh biofilm it will for certain help to condition a new setup. But it will not survive a stay of a few hours in a closed bottle.
Every animal introduced will bring in its own bacterial holobiont.

Pro-biotics in a bottle added to an aquarium will serve who and what?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

One does need bacteria and clades able to form biofilms. Maybe one should put a biofilm into a bottle?
For effective nitrification you do need all types of bacteria creating a biofilm. In a normal nitrifying biofilm +- 40% of bacteria present will be anaerobic and only a relative small amount will be nitrifiers . For effective remineralisation and nitrification one does need all bacteria , not only nitrifiers.

Nitrogen management starts with the food source, the protein content. More protein means more ammonia will be left over after remineralisation of the feed needing more nitrifiers to avoid toxic levels of ammonia., meaning more nitrate must be produced The first bacteria you need are the reducers who will consume ammonia as long organic carbon and all other essential buildingmaterials are available. If enough organic carbon is available in the feed one does not need nitrifiers. But one has to harvest growth. Heterotops produce 40x more biomass compared to nitrifiers to reduce the same amount of ammonia-nitrogen.
Nitrifiers in a bottle for sure can be a good start for introducing organics but there are other possible ways.

If one can obtain parts of fresh biofilm it will for certain help to condition a new setup. But it will not survive a stay of a few hours in a closed bottle.
Every animal introduced will bring in its own bacterial holobiont.

Pro-biotics in a bottle added to an aquarium will serve who and what?

You're missing the difference between nitrification and de- nitrification... What's commonly sold in bottles to help speed up a tank's ability to nitrify toxic ammonia has been found to be legitimate and effective (at least some brands).

Completing the nitrogen cycle is having bacteria in the system that can effectively convert nitrate back into nitrogen (aka de- nitrifiers); these are totally different from the denitrifiers and are not (as I understand it) commonly able to be "bottled".

 

[Aeiyr]

You're missing the difference between nitrification and de- nitrification... What's commonly sold in bottles to help speed up a tank's ability to DE-nitrify toxic ammonia has been found to be legitimate and effective (at least some brands).

Completing the nitrogen cycle is having bacteria in the system that can effectively convert nitrate back into nitrogen (aka nitrifiers); these are totally different from the denitrifiers and are not (as I understand it) commonly able to be "bottled".

Right, at least that's what's always been explained to me, as bacteria that convert nitrate to nitrogen gas are anaerobic, and either require a deep sanded that goes undisturbed long enough for them to grow, or bio media thick enough to have its deeper spaced devoid of oxygen. The cycle can be completed other ways though with things like macro algea.

Typically when I see someone ask if bottled bacteria works my brain defaults to thinking of denitrifying bacteria for ammonia and nitrite, and my my answers has always been yes they work, because we can see them working fairly quickly.

 

[jda]

I think that some of you are confusing terms. Nitrifying bacteria process ammonia and nitrite and eventually turn it into no3 - oxic or aerobic. Denitrifying bacteria turn no3 into N gas - anoxic or anaerobic.

Nitrifying bacteria likely work as advertised at least to a point - they are not complete, but they can get you started. The rest of it is junk, most likely, including those advertised for constant use, algaecides labeled as bacteria (vibrant) or denitrifying bacteria.

BTW - The Belgian will likely have an answer for why anaerobic bacteria in a bottle are a joke too... the target just got moved a bit since it specifically answered for post #46 which was oxidizers or nitrifying bacteria. I have seen this before, but I forgot the reasons.

 

[X-37B]

Their is no substitute for live rock!
Even a couple pieces in a otherwise sterile tank will bring in the correct bacteria over time.
Bottled bacteria may have uses but live rock should not be over looked, imo.

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

I think that some of you are confusing terms. Nitrifying bacteria process ammonia and nitrite and eventually turn it into no3 - oxic or aerobic. Denitrifying bacteria turn no3 into N gas - anoxic or anaerobic.

Nitrifying bacteria likely work as advertised at least to a point - they are not complete, but they can get you started. The rest of it is junk, most likely, including those advertised for constant use, algaecides labeled as bacteria (vibrant) or denitrifying bacteria.

BTW - The Belgian will likely have an answer for why anaerobic bacteria in a bottle are a joke too... the target just got moved a bit since it specifically answered for post #46 which was oxidizers or nitrifying bacteria. I have seen this before, but I forgot the reasons.

So if I am understanding correctly, you believe nitrifying bacteria works but other commercially available products might be snake oil? For example, something like: Brightwell Microbactor Clean.

Trying to learn here, but I feel like there is a layer of fundamentals I am missing.

 

[jda]

I don't use any of them. I trust real chemists, biologists like the folks posting in this thread (and beyond) who have said as much. It is really easy to google what some of them have posted... like the environments needed to survive and how the populate and how none of this is conducive to living in a bottle while some of it is.

These are my thoughts... In general, nothing in a bottle is any good. If you need to dose, Dr RHF has written an article on it and you can buy food-grade things to make your own supplements out of where you know the purity and stuff. Ecosystems can maintain the right amounts of bacteria and they do not need dosed on the regular. Fish/invert gut bacteria is more complete than what comes in a bottle but there is no jump starting this. Once you have a fish or a few gastropods, I don't see the need in even dosing nitrifying bacteria. Beyond fish gut bacteria, something out of the ocean that has been kept in water like a rock or frag on a rock or clam shell can introduce more microfauna and bacteria that you can ever get from a supplement.

Lastly, the manufacturer cannot be trusted for ANYTHING. There are probably some good ones, but the liars and misrepresenters have ruined it for them all. Most hobbyists that are not biologists or chemists are also not really great at these things, either, only they are not looking to deceive you like a manufacturer is... they mean well, but just don't usually know.

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

I don't use any of them. I trust real chemists, biologists like the folks posting in this thread (and beyond) who have said as much. It is really easy to google what some of them have posted... like the environments needed to survive and how the populate and how none of this is conducive to living in a bottle while some of it is.

These are my thoughts... In general, nothing in a bottle is any good. If you need to dose, Dr RHF has written an article on it and you can buy food-grade things to make your own supplements out of where you know the purity and stuff. Ecosystems can maintain the right amounts of bacteria and they do not need dosed on the regular. Fish/invert gut bacteria is more complete than what comes in a bottle but there is no jump starting this. Once you have a fish or a few gastropods, I don't see the need in even dosing nitrifying bacteria. Beyond fish gut bacteria, something out of the ocean that has been kept in water like a rock or frag on a rock or clam shell can introduce more microfauna and bacteria that you can ever get from a supplement.

Lastly, the manufacturer cannot be trusted for ANYTHING. There are probably some good ones, but the liars and misrepresenters have ruined it for them all. Most hobbyists that are not biologists or chemists are also not really great at these things, either, only they are not looking to deceive you like a manufacturer is... they mean well, but just don't usually know.

My only question would be does the rise of macro/liferock (aka dead rock) change this equation at all?

In the old days, we had access to nice premium Tonga or Fiji, right off the plane and full of life (and death!). Now days, for good reason, it can be very hard to get that premium rock, and even the ocean-farmed stuff is tough to find fresh here in my area.

For me, this has opened a door to trying some bottled product. Might be a placebo, but I can't help but feel my tank is sterile or lacking diversity. My next tank will be seeded better, so I likely won't need to consider it, but it still feels like a far cry from the days when each piece of live rock was an ecosystem all to itself.