Do higher parameters = super FAST growth? | BRStv Investigates

Discussion in 'Bulk Reef Supply' started by randyBRS, Jun 7, 2019.

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  1. 7 - 8 dKH

    246 vote(s)
    22.1%
  2. 8 - 9 dKH

    596 vote(s)
    53.6%
  3. 9 - 10 dKH

    183 vote(s)
    16.5%
  4. 10 - 11 dKH

    56 vote(s)
    5.0%
  5. 11 - 12 dKH

    26 vote(s)
    2.3%
  6. Higher or lower? (Share with us!)

    5 vote(s)
    0.4%
  1. Potatohead

    Potatohead Valuable Member

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    I don't know if Randy Holmes-Farley is reading this thread, but I do recall him mentioning before that it takes more alkalinity dosing to maintain higher dkh levels in the tank. I'm not smart enough to know why! lol
     
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  2. randyBRS

    randyBRS BRStv Host :-) R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

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    Worth researching or having someone pop in an enlighten us. I'll do some searching around. :)
     
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  3. FO_Reef

    FO_Reef Member

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    Can you elaborate on this? I think increased growth would be sufficient reason for some to sacrifice the safety of a buffer zone.
     
  4. Chaswood79

    Chaswood79 Valuable Member R2R Supporter

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    2 months ago I raised my alk from around 7 to 8-8.5, no3/po4 from 0.25/0.03 to 10/0.1-0.2 and increased my peak photoperiod from 6 hours to 10. All of these changes produced a significant increase in growth.
    March 21st FE4DEBF7-4C81-45F2-81EB-042FB264EDAD.jpeg 74834146-D125-4C97-86A1-59DB38FD707A.jpeg 4C9C52DD-73E7-4EB2-9F4E-9BC6AC203395.jpeg CF2246AE-2A0E-4428-95FE-2FA7D8D4D212.jpeg B2246BBB-D87F-456A-BF86-8717C69134D7.jpeg Just now
    E510D2C4-1AE4-451C-905C-0A8518BA335F.jpeg AF3CDDFE-AF09-4203-BF5B-9A9C68FF88BD.jpeg A2C6E4F2-380C-47EC-8C45-083F354913D6.jpeg C09473CA-E515-40D6-9F78-31A4DF8F8D3F.jpeg 1D44FCDA-F62F-4D16-AD27-0A0211445AD3.jpeg
     
  5. Ike

    Ike Valuable Member

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    But it's not controlled and there is no control. There are many factors that could be encouraging or limiting growth that aren't being measured nor monitored. It's neat, but there's are many possibilities of drawing a very false and misleading conclusion. Also, if these corals were coming from a system that's close to one set of parameters or the other that's another potentially big factor if in one tank the corals need time to adapt and they don't in the other.
     
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  6. FO_Reef

    FO_Reef Member

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    It’s better than the anecdotal “evidence” that most are working with currently.
     
  7. Ike

    Ike Valuable Member

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    With the way it’s been setup, it will be anecdotal and have a lot more weight put on it by hobbyists. This is worse if the conclusion ends up being wrong.
     
  8. serwobow

    serwobow Member

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    I agree with this sentiment. There can never be a proper control - just a comparison between 2 different conditions, and coral shock is a possibility in that case. It is also likely that more things differ between the 2 conditions than mentioned. For example, impurities in the alkalinity and calcium supplements such as rare elements could increase growth, and would be higher in the "elevated" tank. Also, there could be unobserved tank-specific differences such as faulty or rusting equipment in the tank with lower levels (the 2 acropora deaths in that tank are concerning). Doing this experiment in duplicate (4 tanks total) would have been more convincing in that regard. On the other hand, resources are limited - no one can be expected to account for all possibilities. The simplest interpretation of the results is most often the correct one, and in this case, the increased growth effects due to elevated alkalinity and calcium levels is the simplest, and probably correct interpretation.
     
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  9. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    because Alkalinity is what dKh is a measurement of .... In other words - to increase the dKH - you have to dose more alkalinity.
     
  10. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    This is not correct IMHO - there can be a control - but its expensive/time consuming/difficult to do properly - and might not be needed. ONE type of control would to replicate this experiment 3 times as you mentioned. The other one would be to use smaller volumes - and use fewer types of corals. But - again - I liked the video. To me - standing back - looking at the pictures - I see some differences - but not compelling. And - it could be within the random variation between 2 corals. For example I bought 2 Goniopora - same shop - sitting next to other... One went in the tank - and died - one sitting next to it live 3 years and grew from a ping pong ball to a softball size - same conditions, etc.... Thats why a control is needed
     
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  11. demeyer2

    demeyer2 Active Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Thank you @Ryanbrs and @randyBRS for the BRS investigates series. I love that you're helping to debunk common myths and substantiate ideas such as elevated dKH / Calcium / Magnesium as well as more simple experiments around mixing saltwater, heater accuracy, etc. I've been in the hobby for 15+ years and have read countless R2R threads, but your work continues the infinite learning of our hobby. It's the reason why I exclusively buy everything I need from BRS even when the products are on Amazon and the shipping is potentially faster (I live in NorCal). I loved the BRS/WWC series as well btw.

    As for the control debate, I do a lot of A/B testing professionally and it's rare that the testing environment is 'perfect', but what's important is that you explain the process (which BRS does) and communicate observations without bias (which BRS does) so the consumer can form their own educated opinion on the topic. I for one are extremely grateful for the work all of you are doing. You're empowering us with more information on how to be great stewards of our reefs. Please continue to do all of the great work you're doing and I'll keep buying everything from BRS to show my gratitude :)
     
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  12. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    There is no control debate. at least I hope you didnt get that from my post.
     
  13. FO_Reef

    FO_Reef Member

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    Yes that’s obvious. They are saying that it is not a linear scale.
     
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  14. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Suggestion - rather than just reading what I write - read what I was responding to and the posts before that. And I wasnt responding to the video - I was responding to a poster here...
     
  15. FO_Reef

    FO_Reef Member

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    I’m aware of that. The poster was responding to a question about why alk was being consumed at 6x the rate, when growth was not increased by 6x.
     
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  16. Potatohead

    Potatohead Valuable Member

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    Of course, but we're not talking about increasing, we're talking about maintaining. What he said was that if you run a higher alkalinity level overall, you need to dose more in order to maintain that higher level, even if your actual consumption is the same as a tank run at lower alkalinity.
     
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  17. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    This is what they said: I don't know if Randy Holmes-Farley is reading this thread, but I do recall him mentioning before that it takes more alkalinity dosing to maintain higher dkh levels in the tank. I'm not smart enough to know why! lol


    This was my reply:

    So in other words you have taken several posts - and combined them together - and criticised me.. But - this was what the reply was based on....
     
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  18. Potatohead

    Potatohead Valuable Member

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    I'll agree with the other guy, you've told me one of the very basic things of reefkeeping and didn't answer the question. No offense of course.
     
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  19. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    Read the post I replied to - and it might make more sense.

    FO_Reef said:
    I’m aware of that. The poster was responding to a question about why alk was being consumed at 6x the rate, when growth was not increased by 6x.

    This is what they said: I don't know if Randy Holmes-Farley is reading this thread, but I do recall him mentioning before that it takes more alkalinity dosing to maintain higher dkh levels in the tank. I'm not smart enough to know why! lol


    This was my reply:

    because Alkalinity is what dKh is a measurement of .... In other words - to increase the dKH - you have to dose more alkalinity.


    So in other words you have taken several posts - and combined them together - and criticised me.. But - this was what the reply was based on....
     
  20. FO_Reef

    FO_Reef Member

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    I’m not criticizing you friend, I just think you missed the point of their comment. Potato head clarified pretty articulately, so I’ll just defer to their response.
     
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