Nano_Man
Anemone L
Yep don’t rip clean as vetteguy says this can all be sorted. Your reef looks good just needs a bit of work done on it and it will come back looking amazing in this hobby it all takes time
Do I just need to rip clean and start over?
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MeganV
New Member
Reef Crystals run around 12.0dKh freshly mixed, so that makes sense with your numbers. I personally used RC for years, not understanding that I was causing swings every time I did water changes so I switched recently to a salt that has a dKh closer to what I target in my tank (8.0)
Hang in there. I can totally relate to your situation. My tank just turned a year old and I feel like it looks like garbage. I have a bunch of GHA and velonia. I'm just trying to stick to good habits and come out on the other side with a gorgeous tank. I am suspicious that lack of biodiversity is part of the problem. Back when I first got in the hobby (2008) I never had problems like this...now it's pest algae and dinos and God knows what's next
Hang in there. I can totally relate to your situation. My tank just turned a year old and I feel like it looks like garbage. I have a bunch of GHA and velonia. I'm just trying to stick to good habits and come out on the other side with a gorgeous tank. I am suspicious that lack of biodiversity is part of the problem. Back when I first got in the hobby (2008) I never had problems like this...now it's pest algae and dinos and God knows what's next
ukgeoff
Community Member
Hi, looking at the pictures of your tank, it doesn't look serious enough to strip it down and start over again. I'm certain with a bit of TLC you'll get your tank looking great in about 3-4 months.
I recently experienced the same feeling as you, accidentally overdosing 1000ml of all for reef into my 35-gallon tank. After performing a 90% water change, three weeks later, I moved house and had to do another 100% water change.
Within 2 months, I lost half my well-established corals, and my tank looked awful. I felt really low about the state of my tank and lost interest a little bit. I finally got myself motivated and worked on getting all my parameters back in check.
After 3 months of hard work, my tank's starting to look great again and all my work is finally paying off.
I recently experienced the same feeling as you, accidentally overdosing 1000ml of all for reef into my 35-gallon tank. After performing a 90% water change, three weeks later, I moved house and had to do another 100% water change.
Within 2 months, I lost half my well-established corals, and my tank looked awful. I felt really low about the state of my tank and lost interest a little bit. I finally got myself motivated and worked on getting all my parameters back in check.
After 3 months of hard work, my tank's starting to look great again and all my work is finally paying off.
EithelSirion
Active Member
Calcium and Alk are out of balance, magnesium may be related as previously mentioned. As far as parameters are concerned, an ICP is likely not necessary when you have other easily testable parameters out of balance. Right the ship with the main 3 ions and salinity and figure out what is going on with your pH before you consider ICP as a necessary test.
I don't believe in any benefit to a start over for a case like yours where your tank hasn't had time to accumulate that much detritus or toxic elements. Simple solutions are likely applicable in your case. You state you have growth of a gorgonian and GSP, as well as algae growth. The other corals likely aren't that far away in their needs from those other growing forms of life, unless you're talking about the most delicate species.
In addition to water chemistry, you may need to look at flow and lighting if your concern are SPS corals (since you mentioned new SPS RTN). I noticed from the picture that you have live rock that looks to have a great deal of sand/detritus accumulated on it. Perhaps the flow is the limiting factor in your case?
What SPS corals did you try? Having success with montipora species like digitata, Capricornis, encrusting varieties, etc and other SPS (not acropora species) would be a better idea before trying the more popular Acropora species.
OP
OP
I use Hanna checkers for everything except salinity and magnesium. I have a refractometer for salinity (I calibrate regularly with calibration solution from BRS) and I have a Salifert test kit for magnesium.
OP
OP
I've struggled with ph and alkalinity in this tank since day one. I'm not sure what the heck I'm doing wrong. I went for a year testing weekly and making minor adjustments as recommend in @Randy Holmes-Farley two part thread on Reef Central. It seemed that no matter the adjustments I made, it was always way off. At first I thought the pH probe I use with my RoboTank was messed up, so I replaced it (and calibrated it) but same results. I then suspected bad reagents for the Hannah checkers, so I replaced those, again with no significant change.
I don't remember the name of the first species I tried. It started with an E and was an encrusting form I got from Tidal Gardens. The others I picked up randomly from a store in St. Louis, but can't remember their names. I was told at the time that they are super easy to keep. I'm open to suggestions for good "beginner" level SPS corals, but so far the ones I've had recommended all RTN'd
I think on Friday I'm going to do some more testing, although I'd hazard a guess that my reagents are all out of date. I'll probably go ahead and order an ICP test from ATI just to have some kind of baseline for comparison. Right now I don't really know if my testers are accurate or not.
Take a bottle of tank water to a friendly LFS ask them to test it for you, alk, salinity etcI've struggled with ph and alkalinity in this tank since day one. I'm not sure what the heck I'm doing wrong. I went for a year testing weekly and making minor adjustments as recommend in @Randy Holmes-Farley two part thread on Reef Central. It seemed that no matter the adjustments I made, it was always way off. At first I thought the pH probe I use with my RoboTank was messed up, so I replaced it (and calibrated it) but same results. I then suspected bad reagents for the Hannah checkers, so I replaced those, again with no significant change.
I don't remember the name of the first species I tried. It started with an E and was an encrusting form I got from Tidal Gardens. The others I picked up randomly from a store in St. Louis, but can't remember their names. I was told at the time that they are super easy to keep. I'm open to suggestions for good "beginner" level SPS corals, but so far the ones I've had recommended all RTN'd
I think on Friday I'm going to do some more testing, although I'd hazard a guess that my reagents are all out of date. I'll probably go ahead and order an ICP test from ATI just to have some kind of baseline for comparison. Right now I don't really know if my testers are accurate or not.
Forget about PH for now, if you hav surface movement and they is fresh air in the room your ph is going on o be at least 8.
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How are managing trace elements?I have a 75 gallon DT with a 40 gallon sump. It's been up and running for roughly two year now. The only coral I can get to survive is GSP and a single gorgonian. Everything else has died. I check water parameters weekly, do water changes weekly, and with only two exceptions everything seems to be in order. The pH is always around 7.6 +/- 0.1, and the alkalinity is always high. I've checked CO2 in the house and it's running around 430, so that's not expected to be problematic. I use ro/di water and Instant Ocean Reef Crystals salt.
I suspect the valonia came in on the FL live rock. I also got some nifty red macro algae as well, but the valonia and GHA are killing everything else.
For valonia control I remove the affected rock, pick off the bubbles with a toothpick, drop 3% H2O2 onto the rock where the valonia was with an eyedropper, rinse with saltwater, and place back in the tank. The dang stuff is growing on the underside of the rockwork in the complete dark.
One thing that surprised me. I cannot keep chaeto alive in this tank. I started with the typical refugium in the sump, and it slowly died away to nothing.
Right now I have a sand sifting goby, a lawnmower blenny, an unknown type of blenny, and a firefish goby in the tank.
I'd love to be able to keep some sort of coral alive. I want to get something that I can be proud to say "I'm keeping this piece of the ocean alive."
The tank has been under-maintained for a few months now due to illness in the family, but to be honest I can't tell any significant difference between now and when I was taking care of it weekly. There hasn't been a water change in a month now, and I've not run water tests in quite some time. But hey, the GSP is growing
So, am I better off just ripping the dang thing apart, putting what few living things there are in small temporary tanks, and rip cleaning the whole dang thing, or is there something else I should try first before resorting to such extreme action? I've attached some pictures I just took. This is before cleaning to show it at it's worst.
OP
OP
Right now I'm not really dealing with trace elements.
OP
OP
That would explain that then.
OP
OP
Did water tests tonight, which was a treat with my eyes dilated, but I managed. All reagents are in date with the sole exception of the alkalinity, which is 4 months out of date (it was stored in the refrigerator the entire time).
Temp: 77F
SG: 1.026
pH: 7.68 (tested with both pH probe and an API test strip, which seemed to agree)
Alk: 8.1
Calcium: 350
NO3: 0.02
PO4: 0.00
Mg: 1390
Right now I'm running a skimmer with a CO2 scrubber on the inlet and filter socks on the lines to the sump. I have no earthly idea why my NO3 and PO4 are so low. I feed an entire cube of frozen daily, although there is some macro algae in the tank.
Not sure it matters, but right now I'm running a 6-bulb T5 setup for lighting, although the fixture is going a bit crazy and is going to have to be replaced soon. I'm hoping to go with two of the LED lights from @noopsyche when I can afford them. When I do that I plan to connect a 30g tank I was given into the sump to act as a separate refugium with lots of macro algae in it.
So how do I go about getting these numbers stable? I have solutions for the 2-part mixed up. I have two extra dosing pumps sitting around here somewhere that I will be setting up with my RoboTank (reef-pi system), but I have to find them. We had to have some sump pumps installed, so the entire basement has been moved around and I'm not 100% sure where everything got moved to just yet.
Temp: 77F
SG: 1.026
pH: 7.68 (tested with both pH probe and an API test strip, which seemed to agree)
Alk: 8.1
Calcium: 350
NO3: 0.02
PO4: 0.00
Mg: 1390
Right now I'm running a skimmer with a CO2 scrubber on the inlet and filter socks on the lines to the sump. I have no earthly idea why my NO3 and PO4 are so low. I feed an entire cube of frozen daily, although there is some macro algae in the tank.
Not sure it matters, but right now I'm running a 6-bulb T5 setup for lighting, although the fixture is going a bit crazy and is going to have to be replaced soon. I'm hoping to go with two of the LED lights from @noopsyche when I can afford them. When I do that I plan to connect a 30g tank I was given into the sump to act as a separate refugium with lots of macro algae in it.
So how do I go about getting these numbers stable? I have solutions for the 2-part mixed up. I have two extra dosing pumps sitting around here somewhere that I will be setting up with my RoboTank (reef-pi system), but I have to find them. We had to have some sump pumps installed, so the entire basement has been moved around and I'm not 100% sure where everything got moved to just yet.
OP
OP
I did some water tests last night and posted the results in this thread. Could you look at them and see what you think?
EithelSirion
Active Member
The only parameters out of order enough to cause issue are pH, NO3, PO4. All 3 may be fine depending on what the real flux of those parameters are. For instance, pH isn’t a single point that matters but the overall curve. Is that measuring your high point or your low point? Either way that likely won’t matter significantly to many soft corals. For NO3 and PO4, you really need enough flux into the system. How much algae growth are you removing from the tank? I have a tank about the same size as yours and I was removing a softball sized clump of macroalgae from the Refugium once every two weeks for the first couple of years until my SPS growth has taken over a majority of the nutrient uptake. I still make sure I feed enough that there is steady growth of algae that I have to remove, although now I remove algae far less often.
Overall, I think that your tank should still be fine for many corals. What corals have you tried? Even the best systems sometimes struggle to keep certain species of corals. For example, I have had great growth of my Acropora species but every seriatopora species I have tried in the early years of the tank didn’t make it long term. Normally, those seriatopora species are considered much easier. My other tanks and tanks I had in the past could grow seriatopora fine. I’m likely to try another seriatopora again soon, but as of right now I haven’t been successful with a relatively “east to keep” SPS. I would recommend trying some new corals that are on the easier end and seeing if your tank is really as uninhabitable as you think. Depending on flow and lighting, there are different corals I would recommend although zoanthids work in pretty much all conditions.
Most importantly, we still haven’t heard anything in regards to the flow in your tank. What are you doing to move water? Almost all corals need some degree of water movement and a tank your size probably can’t get enough flow from the return pump only. Even with perfect water chemistry, too much or too little flow for the specific coral can cause it not to thrive. I have Euphyllia corals that have done very poorly after the flow pattern changed slightly in my tank and gave them too much flow.
EithelSirion
Active Member
Looking through this post and your old threads more closely, I notice a few things.
First, it looks like you probably don’t have enough flow. In my 75g with 40g sump, I have a 1500gph return pump, two 4000gph gyres (one of them only maxes out at 65% while the other is 100%), and an MP40 that occasionally hits 75% reef crest. I’m keeping SPS and you wouldn’t want this much flow for most corals, but just an example. I wasn’t getting good growth of corals in my Refugium (previously only macroalgae and pulsing Xenia for nutrient export) so I added a 1000gph gyre and that 18”x18”x18” Refugium section is still growing SPS and gorgonians despite having absolutely insane amounts of mostly direct flow. Flow against the surface may be the solution to your pH problem. Good air exchange is paramount. I have one 4K gyre pushing flow across the surface in the tank and the same with my 1k gyre in the Refugium. You want the surface of the water to be constantly moving and changing like a fast flowing river. Even in a lower flow tank, I would recommend good flow against the surface for exchange.
Second, your fish load is not very high. This may be fine, but it may not. Depends on what corals you want to keep and how aggressively you are exporting nutrients.
Third, you mentioned in another thread that your PO4 was “off the charts” in the end of July and then later it was 0.09, and your most recent testing is 0.00. What this tells me is that you’re having a lot of fluctuation. Stability is the most important, and making too many changes too fast will cause corals to die even if they would survive in both conditions that you switched between. Try to find stability by not changing things too fast. A recommendation I have for people is to test often and understand how the parameters are changing over the span of a day and a week, or longer if you go longer between water changes (I don’t do water changes anymore but wouldn’t recommend you do that yet). Do all that testing for a week without changing anything. Then you’ll know much better what to adjust than if you take parameters at a single point in time. Look below at how little fluctuation I have over 24 hours in my temperature and pH. Is the pH low for my liking? Yes. Am I going to rapidly add something to raise it? No. I will slowly make changes by adding more Kalk to my ATO to get my pH a little higher over the span of the next week, if I feel like doing that.
First, it looks like you probably don’t have enough flow. In my 75g with 40g sump, I have a 1500gph return pump, two 4000gph gyres (one of them only maxes out at 65% while the other is 100%), and an MP40 that occasionally hits 75% reef crest. I’m keeping SPS and you wouldn’t want this much flow for most corals, but just an example. I wasn’t getting good growth of corals in my Refugium (previously only macroalgae and pulsing Xenia for nutrient export) so I added a 1000gph gyre and that 18”x18”x18” Refugium section is still growing SPS and gorgonians despite having absolutely insane amounts of mostly direct flow. Flow against the surface may be the solution to your pH problem. Good air exchange is paramount. I have one 4K gyre pushing flow across the surface in the tank and the same with my 1k gyre in the Refugium. You want the surface of the water to be constantly moving and changing like a fast flowing river. Even in a lower flow tank, I would recommend good flow against the surface for exchange.
Second, your fish load is not very high. This may be fine, but it may not. Depends on what corals you want to keep and how aggressively you are exporting nutrients.
Third, you mentioned in another thread that your PO4 was “off the charts” in the end of July and then later it was 0.09, and your most recent testing is 0.00. What this tells me is that you’re having a lot of fluctuation. Stability is the most important, and making too many changes too fast will cause corals to die even if they would survive in both conditions that you switched between. Try to find stability by not changing things too fast. A recommendation I have for people is to test often and understand how the parameters are changing over the span of a day and a week, or longer if you go longer between water changes (I don’t do water changes anymore but wouldn’t recommend you do that yet). Do all that testing for a week without changing anything. Then you’ll know much better what to adjust than if you take parameters at a single point in time. Look below at how little fluctuation I have over 24 hours in my temperature and pH. Is the pH low for my liking? Yes. Am I going to rapidly add something to raise it? No. I will slowly make changes by adding more Kalk to my ATO to get my pH a little higher over the span of the next week, if I feel like doing that.
OP
OP
Flow could very well be a big part of the problem then. Right now I have the return pump (2160 gph) and a 600 gph circulating pump in the tank. I have a solid glass top on the tank due to a firefish goby (I've lost a few of those in the past as jumpers and didn't want to risk it this time around).
The nutrient situation is weird. I've not removed any macro algae until last night when I cleaned off all of the growth from the left side return. I do feed a cube of frozen daily and there are four fish, but I did not expect the NO3 and PO4 to completely bottom out like they have.
I can't remember the name of the coral species I got from Tidal Gardens. I tried to log into their site, but I'm guessing my account is too old and is blocked or something. It was an encrusting sps is all I remember (and it started with an E I think). The others I've tried were small frags from a local store, taxonomy unknown.
OP
OP
Looking through this post and your old threads more closely, I notice a few things.
First, it looks like you probably don’t have enough flow. In my 75g with 40g sump, I have a 1500gph return pump, two 4000gph gyres (one of them only maxes out at 65% while the other is 100%), and an MP40 that occasionally hits 75% reef crest. I’m keeping SPS and you wouldn’t want this much flow for most corals, but just an example. I wasn’t getting good growth of corals in my Refugium (previously only macroalgae and pulsing Xenia for nutrient export) so I added a 1000gph gyre and that 18”x18”x18” Refugium section is still growing SPS and gorgonians despite having absolutely insane amounts of mostly direct flow. Flow against the surface may be the solution to your pH problem. Good air exchange is paramount. I have one 4K gyre pushing flow across the surface in the tank and the same with my 1k gyre in the Refugium. You want the surface of the water to be constantly moving and changing like a fast flowing river. Even in a lower flow tank, I would recommend good flow against the surface for exchange.
Second, your fish load is not very high. This may be fine, but it may not. Depends on what corals you want to keep and how aggressively you are exporting nutrients.
Third, you mentioned in another thread that your PO4 was “off the charts” in the end of July and then later it was 0.09, and your most recent testing is 0.00. What this tells me is that you’re having a lot of fluctuation. Stability is the most important, and making too many changes too fast will cause corals to die even if they would survive in both conditions that you switched between. Try to find stability by not changing things too fast. A recommendation I have for people is to test often and understand how the parameters are changing over the span of a day and a week, or longer if you go longer between water changes (I don’t do water changes anymore but wouldn’t recommend you do that yet). Do all that testing for a week without changing anything. Then you’ll know much better what to adjust than if you take parameters at a single point in time. Look below at how little fluctuation I have over 24 hours in my temperature and pH. Is the pH low for my liking? Yes. Am I going to rapidly add something to raise it? No. I will slowly make changes by adding more Kalk to my ATO to get my pH a little higher over the span of the next week, if I feel like doing that.
The PO4 situation is bizarre. I had to stop doing much on the tank for four months due to situations beyond my control. It basically ran on it's own with lighting and feedings and that's it. During that time the PO4 lowered on it's own, and I don't understand why. The macro algae grew a small amount, but not enough that I would think it could account for that large a swing.
You are probably right about the flow. I was hoping to just start with a single sps of some sort to prove that I could keep something alive before I started moving towards a full sps dominant tank. That may have been backwards thinking on my part. Right now I have a solid glass lid on the tank to keep the firefish from jumping to it's death. I can find something else to use and maybe come up with a Gyre if they aren't too expensive. Part of the ongoing challenge with this tank is a low budget for equipment. Lighting is going to become an issue in the not so distant future as my current fixture is in the process of a slow death.
How does this sound as a game plan?
- Clean the macro algae off the other return line
- Remove the rocks and clean off the valonia (kill it with H2O2 by eye dropper)
- Let it sit for a week or so to stabilize
- Acquire replacement alkalinity reagent
- Test daily for a week (or more) to see how things change
- Find and prepare the two dosing pumps I have
- Ask on here for dosing information after I have the numbers
- Maybe get some more fish, depending on what I can find
EithelSirion
Active Member
I would try to direct some of your flow onto/across the surface to get agitation of the surface water and better gas exchange. The glass lid isn’t an issue, I would bet you open it a few times a day which would exchange air. A cheaper addition for Ca/Alk to start with would be kalkwasser which is a single part addition (and would also greatly help your pH as a side effect) and you can rebalance the Ca/Alk if necessary with manual additions of 2-part or via water changes. I would wait to see what the situation is with your nutrient input before you decide whether to add input via fish, decrease export via removal of macroalgae, etc. I would wager to believe you need more nutrient input but I’m not intimately involved in your system.
As far as the valonia, I’m personally not a big “add things to kill pests” sort of reefer. The most I’ve done is add Kalk paste onto an anemone to kill it back. Don’t believe in all those miracles in a bottle. H2O2 is fine probably but I haven’t tried it for valonia. Manual removal is a good option though. I have valonia in my tank and aside from cleaning it from the power heads my emerald crabs keep it under control.
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OP
OP
Ahh, what I do with valonia is remove the rock, manually remove the valonia, and then put a few drops of H2O2 on the spot where the valonia was growing. That removes any remnants that I couldn't get out of the rocks.
For kalkwasser I need a better continuous duty peristaltic pump (or so I've read). I would have to choose between a Gyre, that pump, and lighting. Not sure which I should prioritize at this point.
Edit: Would this pump work for flow? In case the Amazon link doesn't work, it's Amazon part # B0C33GVBGY.
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EithelSirion
Active Member
I would prioritize flow if your intention is to keep SPS, but if you’re making compromises in equipment then you may have problems with failure down the line. That looks similar to the IceCap 2k gyres that I have used in the past and I think would work just fine for you.
I just use kalkwasser in my ATO chamber. Do you have an ATO?
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