Do rollermats help keep nitrate/phosphate down?

[Oregon Grown Reef]

Here's another update.

The rollermat may be too good at it's job. My acros weren't looking too great and my zoas started closing up, so I started testing nutrients.

My phosphates were measuring at 0, so I started dosing until I got it up to 0.03-0.04. It took about a week of phosphate dosing to change anything. I could tell when the phosphate dropped to 0 throughout the day as the zoanthids would close up. The next morning after dosing each time, they would be open.

I just tested nitrates today and they're also at 0. I use the red sea nitrate test. I started with the high range as it's always been in the high range. After the color didn't change, I did the normal test and it was still 99% clear. I did a large water change after I got the last icp test because of high levels of tin and aluminum. I'm guessing it dropped it too much and continued to decrease the levels because of the rollermat.

I'm going to have to start dosing nitrate. I'd much rather have to dose nitrate/phosphate than remove it. Removing it means I'm doing water changes or carbon dosing which adds an amount of complexity and cost (moreso for water changes) not necessary. I'd much rather be able to keep my levels at an exact amount. I never thought I'd be able to control my nutrients the same way I control my alk/ca/mg.

This does mean I'll have to test every 2-3 days to make sure the levels don't drop too low, but I'm excited. This is a completely different method of reefing for me and I like it.

 

[green behind the ears]

I must be running mine wrong

 

[green behind the ears]

I feel mine let’s by a lot of gunk

 

[Oregon Grown Reef]

I feel mine let’s by a lot of gunk

This isn't my experience at all. Other than spirobid worms and shells, the skimmer section and return pump section are completely clean. The main sump section where the live rock, hermit crabs, and a couple of shrimp has some detritus, but not enough spoil the water.

 

[Edgar F]

are you stil dosing nitrates and po4, i instal a roler mat and my nitrates are running at 0 and po4 at 6. planning to run them like that to figth some algea off.

how is your technic working out?

 

[ajtomase]

The title says it all. I know it sounds ridiculous. "Of course it does. It removes a majority of the waste before it has a chance to break down."

I guess I'm asking this: What has been the difference in your nutrients before and after installing a rollermat?

I installed a Clarisea SK5000 on my 40 breeder because I was lazy and never changed my filter socks every 2-3 days like you're supposed to. After installing, I've noticed it pulling out a ton of gunk. The water is now crystal clear after just 48 hours. I've read a ton of threads praising them for their filtering abilities, but none to my knowledge that speak to the difference in nitrate/phosphate.

I'd love to hear about your experiences. Hopefully this thread helps convince people to buy (or not buy) a rollermat.

How are your nitrate and phosphate levels? I want to include one in my tank, but I heard it can really strip a tank of those items...

 

[Oregon Grown Reef]

How are your nitrate and phosphate levels? I want to include one in my tank, but I heard it can really strip a tank of those items...

I wish I could give you good info, but this tank crashed. I stopped testing things after all of my acros died. I'm going to be getting back into it, but it's going to be a good long time before I get enough funds for more corals.

 

[PeterEde]

Thread revival

I just installed a Bubble Magus G2 small. So far looks to be working a treat. The roll is coming out discoloured.
Now as I understand it this will NOT removed dissolved organics only solids (uneatenfood, poop etc)

But it should stop the increase of No3 by removing solids.

To reduce current No3 requires a few water changes to get Nitrates to a level I am happy with and the roller should maintain that level? + WC?

So far in a few days my Nitrates seem stable so now just need to start more water changes to reduce it.
I'm thinking 10% every other day till I get it down to a place where all corals are happy.
Only problem with going lower than 20 is my Sarcophyton appears to like 20-40. Anything less than 20 and it shutdowns and over 40 it shuts down

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Thread revival

I just installed a Bubble Magus G2 small. So far looks to be working a treat. The roll is coming out discoloured.
Now as I understand it this will NOT removed dissolved organics only solids (uneatenfood, poop etc)

But it should stop the increase of No3 by removing solids.

To reduce current No3 requires a few water changes to get Nitrates to a level I am happy with and the roller should maintain that level? + WC?

So far in a few days my Nitrates seem stable so now just need to start more water changes to reduce it.
I'm thinking 10% every other day till I get it down to a place where all corals are happy.
Only problem with going lower than 20 is my Sarcophyton appears to like 20-40. Anything less than 20 and it shutdowns and over 40 it shuts down

Such roller is a mechanical filter. It traps organic solids but this does not mean the trapped solids may not be broken down to dissolved organics ( DOC) Such solids are covered with bacteria trying to brake it down to retrieve the carbon they need, turning it into usable DOC. So, it is important how fast produced solids are effectively removed from the system water?
About nitrate ? This will not prevent nitrate is produced.! When a fish eats the food it uses only a small amount of nitrogen present in the food and releases +- 85% of all nitrogen present in proteins as ammonia. This means most nitrogen present in the food has been removed and is not part of the organic waste released by the fish and of which can be trapped by a mechanical filter.
Normally the released ammonia is used by fast growing heterotrophic bacteria using DOC to grow. Once all carbon present in DOC is used up ( most carbon is used for energy production, not for growth, and is released as CO2) not all ammonia can be used for growth and ammonia will build up if nothing is done. To prevent toxic ammonia may build up nature turns the ammonia left over after remineralization into a safely stored nitrogen reserve, nitrate. This safely stored nitrogen then can be used by slower growing photo-autotrophs, phytoplankton, algae , turning produced CO2 and nitrogen back into organic life.

Most the nitrogen present in the food added is released as ammonia. What will happen with the released ammonia if organics normally broken down and by which released ammonia is used up are exported? I hope a very effective nitrification capacity is present because more toxic ammonia may become available for to be used by autotrophs.

it should stop the increase of No3 by removing solids. What do you think?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

If produced ammonia is not used up by fast growing heterotrophic bacteria it must be used by slower growing autotrophs to prevent ammonia reaches a toxic level. If photo-autrophs grow using ammonia as a nitrogen source they will grow +- 8 x faster as when using nitrate as a nitrogen source. For photo-autotrophs to be able to grow they need inorganic nutrients, produced due to braking down organic waste. Because the heterotrophs will not use up all released ammonia and the autotrophs can not use up all produced ammonia, who will? A balance must be found! How using a roller mat or any other mechanical filter, including a skimmer removing DOC, may help managing the system , creating a balance between consumers, reducers and producers?

Nitrient management starts with what is going in, starting with the protein content and carbon source of food added.

I do prefer the nitrogen reserve to be present in the form of nitrate. The nitrate content can easily be managed and, there is no need to rush.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

So far in a few days my Nitrates seem stable so now just need to start more water changes to reduce it.
I'm thinking 10% every other day till I get it down to a place where all corals are happy.
Only problem with going lower than 20 is my Sarcophyton appears to like 20-40. Anything less than 20 and it shutdowns and over 40 it shuts down

What was the average daily nitrate overproduction? How long it takes going from 20 to 40 ? Why a link with the nitrate level and not with other parameters? Nitrate accumulation may be linked to the presence of other minor nutrients and elements, or the lack of it ( nitrate is not used up by growth, why?)) having an effect on the holobiont of the Sarcophyton and or corals. In most cases nitrate accumulation is the messenger, not the reason.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thread revival

I just installed a Bubble Magus G2 small. So far looks to be working a treat. The roll is coming out discoloured.
Now as I understand it this will NOT removed dissolved organics only solids (uneatenfood, poop etc)

But it should stop the increase of No3 by removing solids.

To reduce current No3 requires a few water changes to get Nitrates to a level I am happy with and the roller should maintain that level? + WC?

So far in a few days my Nitrates seem stable so now just need to start more water changes to reduce it.
I'm thinking 10% every other day till I get it down to a place where all corals are happy.
Only problem with going lower than 20 is my Sarcophyton appears to like 20-40. Anything less than 20 and it shutdowns and over 40 it shuts down

I would not assume you need to up water changes to get nitrate to decline. The roller mag is removing a source and there is ongoing consumption, so it may decline on its own.

 

[Oregon Grown Reef]

I have not been keeping corals for some time now due to not being able to take care of the tanks due to a family medical emergency. I have not been testing nitrates as a result since I just have fish now. When I was testing every week, I still found that my nitrates were rising. I was feeding heavily, but I thought I could do so because of the rollermat. If I'm reading what @Belgian Anthias is saying correctly, the ammonia produced from the fish is the main cause of the rise in nitrates since I believe the food/waste is being removed from the tank at a sufficient enough rate to not allow it to break down enough to cause a problem. What are the downfalls to the ammonia being produced without the rest of the food waste breaking down? Is it necessary to have the rest of the food break down to allow for sufficient balanced remineralization? I guess what I'm asking is if the nitrate produced from the fish will not be used up because there lacks other necessary minerals from the food/waste to allow for that?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have not been keeping corals for some time now due to not being able to take care of the tanks due to a family medical emergency. I have not been testing nitrates as a result since I just have fish now. When I was testing every week, I still found that my nitrates were rising. I was feeding heavily, but I thought I could do so because of the rollermat. If I'm reading what @Belgian Anthias is saying correctly, the ammonia produced from the fish is the main cause of the rise in nitrates since I believe the food/waste is being removed from the tank at a sufficient enough rate to not allow it to break down enough to cause a problem. What are the downfalls to the ammonia being produced without the rest of the food waste breaking down? Is it necessary to have the rest of the food break down to allow for sufficient balanced remineralization? I guess what I'm asking is if the nitrate produced from the fish will not be used up because there lacks other necessary minerals from the food/waste to allow for that?

Fish, like people, excrete phosphate as well. They are not unbalanced to excreting only N.

They eat food particles and excrete most of the N and P in it, just like bacteria eating the same food particulates.

 

[Oregon Grown Reef]

Fish, like people, excrete phosphate as well. They are not unbalanced to excreting only N.

They eat food particles and excrete most of the N and P in it, just like bacteria eating the same food particulates.

Was I interpreting what he said incorrectly? I know it's just speculation, but assuming the filter roller catches most of the excess food and waste due to there being sufficient flow in the tank to suspend it, is it just the increase in how much the fish are eating and the lack of other nitrate (among other things) consuming organisms in the tank that allow nitrate to rise?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Was I interpreting what he said incorrectly? I know it's just speculation, but assuming the filter roller catches most of the excess food and waste due to there being sufficient flow in the tank to suspend it, is it just the increase in how much the fish are eating and the lack of other nitrate (among other things) consuming organisms in the tank that allow nitrate to rise?

Im not going to try to interpret his words, but the reality is the roller mat removes particulates that contain N and P and other elements. There’s no reason to think it causes any sort of imbalance.

 

[Oregon Grown Reef]

Im not going to try to interpret his words, but the reality is the roller mat removes particulates that contain N and P and other elements. There’s no reason to think it causes any sort of imbalance.

Good to know. Regarding the 2nd part of my last post, do you think I could still overfeed to the point where nitrates will rise regardless of removing food/waste if I didn't have say enough organisms in the tank to consume what is being produced? Will adding more surface area for bacteria to colonize, ie more rocks in the sump help with managing nitrates? I'm not trying to get out of water changes, but I do want to better understand the reason for rising nitrates despite using what I thought was adequate mechanical filtration. Obviously feeding less can help stop nitrates from rising, but even if I feed less, is there potential for nitrates to continue to rise if I don't have enough life in the tank to consume it?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There’s no reason to assume one can exactly balance foods against export of N and P without taking extra steps to do so.

Removing particulate waste mechanically will not prevent nitrate and phosphate from rising if you feed sufficiently large amounts relative to the uptake and export. Most N and P that fish eat is excreted.

 

[Oregon Grown Reef]

There’s no reason to assume one can exactly balance foods against export of N and P without taking extra steps to do so.

Removing particulate waste mechanically will not prevent nitrate and phosphate from rising if you feed sufficiently large amounts relative to the uptake and export. Most N and P that fish eat is excreted.

Thanks for helping me out! Your answers are straight forward and helped me understand in a more clear way why different nutrient export methods need to be used. Not sure if you still do, but I know you used to carbon dose on your tank. Are there any pitfalls or things I should watch for should I decide to go that route, other than the obvious overdosing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for helping me out! Your answers are straight forward and helped me understand in a more clear way why different nutrient export methods need to be used. Not sure if you still do, but I know you used to carbon dose on your tank. Are there any pitfalls or things I should watch for should I decide to go that route, other than the obvious overdosing?

Not really anything else to worry about. It’s a good way to make food for filter feeders and even feed many corals and sponges and such directly,

what is the nitrate now? Phosphate?