Do Zoanthid morphs really disappear from the Hobby?!
- Thread starter SauceyReef
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Somewhat related, I wish we still had most of those OG SBB morphs around, like the dragon glass or oscar the grouch mentioned earlier. Or the asd adonis, marvin the martians from sbb and deleriums. I believe SBB had some crash or something happen and most of those rarer zoa morphs pretty much died out then, I rarely see them anymore but I want some oscar the grouches soooo bad!
littlebigreef
Valuable Member
Fortunately utter chaos are well established. That said, ultimate chaos (with the green center) are practically gone. Haven’t seen one in years (someone wanna flex with a pic drop right now that’d be awesome).
I propose the standard unit for how difficult a strain to keep should be a polyp of hallucinations lol.
Ssb oscar the grouch = 2.7 hallucinations
rogersb
Well-Known Member
I listened to a podcast recently discussing this but with sps. Their idea was that newer hobbyists buy what's trendy so growers/sellers are trying to keep up with that demand and not focusing on older variants.
Case in point, PPE. At the most recent swap I took a frag with 15+polyps and listed it for $25. It was near the end of the swap before I sold it and the only way I got it sold was to include another frag for free with it. If I was looking at this from a strictly seller's POV, I should get rid of all my PPE because they're taking up space that something else could be growing in profitably.
Case in point, PPE. At the most recent swap I took a frag with 15+polyps and listed it for $25. It was near the end of the swap before I sold it and the only way I got it sold was to include another frag for free with it. If I was looking at this from a strictly seller's POV, I should get rid of all my PPE because they're taking up space that something else could be growing in profitably.
littlebigreef
Valuable Member
I think there's more nuance there we could hash out. A certain segment of newer hobbyists are indeed looking for the trendy coral because that's what's getting promoted on social media channels. There's a certain mentality at work where 'its a hot coral, I can buy it, flip some frags, make my money back.' Not casting judgement on that necessarily but that same segment is speculating and looking at the coral as an investment, not 'can I grow this out into a colony in my system which will bring me joy.'
I'd say there's another segment of newer reefers, perhaps less influenced by social media, that are somewhat familiar with names and colors that are looking for stuff to keep long term with less concern about names and value (provided it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to begin with). Unfortunately these folks are not necessarily part of the demographic that are going to swaps just yet - largely because of a lack of familiarity, etc. However, these are the same folks locally, at lfs, and on r2r, that buy zoa packs containing common strains.
Whenever I go to swaps I clean up on those common strains in the fashion you describe above and it allows me to fill holes where I may have lost a strain or never had it previously (I'm going to grab some fizzy izzys and fairy tales next time I see them).
From a seller's perspective its a question of 'what game do you want to play?' I think enough people have been burnt in recent years trying to flip zoas so now the craze has moved back to acros. With the way zoas depreciate in value it no longer makes it worth while (for most) to pay a premium and try to grow and flip (different paths to get there but look no further than GMKS and Strats). Many people offering frags these days seem to have a display and a frag tank at minimum. In those cases, or if you're an organized home business, profitability, even financial sustainability (covering carrying costs) matters. But you've also fundamentally changed your relationship with the hobby where that cost needs to be recovered. For my part I prefer the long game where I still do well selling utter chaos, mandarin oranges, rastas and bam bams but also newer high demand strains as well. One further wrinkle is that we are at or have passed the saturation point where aquacultured zoa availability is out pacing demand (and not just because we've returned to an industry normal summer off-season post pandemic).
I believe there's always going to be a market for PPE provided you keep the colony in check so it doesn't become half of your system. On the other hand I've dumped all death palys, capt jerks, etc and kept only capt Americans and beauty and the beast. I've also kept nirvanas and pandoras confined to a very small colony. But, as anyone who's worked with these strains well knows, there's basically zero chance they ever fully disappear from the hobby.
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SauceyReef
Valuable Member
This has become an incredibly interesting post. I appreciate everyones replies and opinions. I definitely think it is a mix of what everyone has said here.
@littlebigreef I think I slightly fit the demographic you are talking about. The pandemic brought in a lot of budgeted reefers who didn't know what to do with their extra time, or extra stimulus cash. I was one of those. Since joining again Ive been just doing nanos. After some other zoas did well for me it became a double positive to try nicer strains.
1. Limited space in the tank & replacing more common morphs with prettier ones to lively up the tank colors / aesthetic.
2. The enticement of growing + selling them when you buy a polyp for $50-$100. When you don't make much $ the idea of actually being able to trade/sell frags to get nicer stuff becomes a much more desirable strategy than people with expendable $ to spend on the hobby.
I can tell from my experience social media is a huge factor. TikTok is massively blowing up the hobby. Certain strains are getting thrown in the limelight as we all saw with GMKs, and now stratospheres. Not to say this hasn't happened before, but with technology, population, and social media growing - this hobby will just get larger along with the trends.
Could it also be that certain Zoa species have a "critical death point"? Where after a certain amount of years and times being fragged it somehow massively drops the immune systems of all the past frags - and they can randomly all melt on us?? Fragging corals and keeping them in tanks long term could potentially be causing negative health factors to particular strains.
@littlebigreef I think I slightly fit the demographic you are talking about. The pandemic brought in a lot of budgeted reefers who didn't know what to do with their extra time, or extra stimulus cash. I was one of those. Since joining again Ive been just doing nanos. After some other zoas did well for me it became a double positive to try nicer strains.
1. Limited space in the tank & replacing more common morphs with prettier ones to lively up the tank colors / aesthetic.
2. The enticement of growing + selling them when you buy a polyp for $50-$100. When you don't make much $ the idea of actually being able to trade/sell frags to get nicer stuff becomes a much more desirable strategy than people with expendable $ to spend on the hobby.
I can tell from my experience social media is a huge factor. TikTok is massively blowing up the hobby. Certain strains are getting thrown in the limelight as we all saw with GMKs, and now stratospheres. Not to say this hasn't happened before, but with technology, population, and social media growing - this hobby will just get larger along with the trends.
Could it also be that certain Zoa species have a "critical death point"? Where after a certain amount of years and times being fragged it somehow massively drops the immune systems of all the past frags - and they can randomly all melt on us?? Fragging corals and keeping them in tanks long term could potentially be causing negative health factors to particular strains.
littlebigreef
Valuable Member
On your first point it certainly beats another zoa ID post lol.
On your last thought this was something that was on my mind but hadn't broached yet. When stuff comes in it gets cherry picked by vendors with connections or else when direct importing vendors can pull and tank interesting strains.
I've gotten to experience this first had as a good friend owns a shop and gets to choose 'near wysiwyg' from his importer. Since indo opened back up I've worked extensively with wild and maricultured strains and the hurdles are three-fold. First, you have the initial trauma of transhipping, 2) adaption to captivity (nutrition, lighting, water chemisty) and 3) long term growth and sustainability. Any one of those can be a blocker to a strain successfully getting established in the hobby. I've had any number of strains get to that 8-9 month mark, disease free and seemingly stable only to collapse. I've also had friends send me stuff under similar conditions only for everyone to lost them across systems. Some birds just aren't meant to be caged.
At this point again I'll say I'm not casting judgement but predator zoas were initally offered at $300 only for the price to collapse as it became apparent that a great number of rocks covered in them were being collected. However, after that initial wave of availability subsided I haven't seen many (if any) gen 2 or 3 being offered. This has happened with strains in the past as well and I suspect it might be a contributing factor (coupled with an extraordinary high price) why some of those ssb strains are hard to find - Aphrodite's and marvin's being the exception from that general cluster of zoas. Basically its like a great filter with cost (limiting dispersement), and adaptability (think about achilles tangs and how for every 1 that makes it probably 7-8 don't) and human error (husbandry) all factoring in.
The conclusion there is that long term aquacutlure is actually the answer to strengthening strains that are available. Case in point, I a failed number times with jf a$s-kraks before I found a 'bullet proof' lineage which, knock on wood, is still going strong. The down side is that there's untold gems which people are successfully keeping but never gain much more than local name recognition let alone land on reefers ISO lists across the country (case in point is Great Owls).
I'm done, curious to hear other's thoughts.
rogersb
Well-Known Member
When looking at long term care and keeping my thoughts are that there are certain strains that like your tank or don't. My tank grows fat polyps quickly but struggles or fails with smaller zoas. I can grow PE, AOG, UC, etc well and quickly but dragon eyes, emeralds on fire, or LA Lakers wither regardless of placement.
I previously thought there was a seasonal die off, but now think what I'm seeing is a new variant being placed in the tank and it trying to grow to a place it likes only to not find it in time, and the colony fades away.
Is it my water? I keep mostly euphyllia, are they releasing toxins that the smaller bodied zoas didn't grow up around?
I previously thought there was a seasonal die off, but now think what I'm seeing is a new variant being placed in the tank and it trying to grow to a place it likes only to not find it in time, and the colony fades away.
Is it my water? I keep mostly euphyllia, are they releasing toxins that the smaller bodied zoas didn't grow up around?
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SauceyReef
Valuable Member
@littlebigreef fantastic replies and experience/info.
@rogersb I have noticed larger polyps do a little better for me also. My white zombies are coincidentally my largest and fastest growing polyps. I also wondered if it could be the reaction to other corals in a system. So many variables / factors could be playing into this. I personally don't run carbon, and as my tank fills in more and more I see some corals just don't tend to make it long term even if having a fantastic start. Having a Nano probably makes this balance of long term survivability a bit more difficult.
@rogersb I have noticed larger polyps do a little better for me also. My white zombies are coincidentally my largest and fastest growing polyps. I also wondered if it could be the reaction to other corals in a system. So many variables / factors could be playing into this. I personally don't run carbon, and as my tank fills in more and more I see some corals just don't tend to make it long term even if having a fantastic start. Having a Nano probably makes this balance of long term survivability a bit more difficult.
rogersb
Well-Known Member
I also run very little carbon. Probably once a month I change out a couple ounces from a bag I keep in my sump. Probably need to do it once a week to be effective.
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SauceyReef
Valuable Member
I have seen many beautiful tanks stuffed with corals + zoas running no carbon, so I have just never ran it unless I am doing fragging. From what I looked up it should be useless after 1-2 days.
littlebigreef
Valuable Member
I wholly avoid carbon unless I'm removing medication from the system. In that case I'll throw on a two little fishies 150 reactor and run it for a few days. In a nano post fragging I could see how it might help. I usually just do a big water change.
Tavero
Well-Known Member
These are animals and not bamboo. They don't have a preset expiration date. If i would take i guess i suspect that a lot of morphs disapoear because of our light. Pigments are mainly protection from excess light so it would make sense. The melting may be a light problem too, but this is still inconclusive
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SauceyReef
Valuable Member
Bamboo is hardier than most animals. With a toxic environment, or for better words an imperfect environment, everything reaches a critical death point eventually. My point is that they could go for years looking healthy even though our tank environment is causing long-term harm. This could lead to eventual death of the colonies while we ponder what happened.
littlebigreef
Valuable Member
I see what you're getting at. Colonies can burn out after a period of time but IME its largely due to bacterinal/protozan issues or poor/lax husbandry. I've still got my first zoa from when I actively started collecting them 2010 (fire and ice). It is not the same polyps but its the same thing. I also have a chunk of potato chip pavona from 2003. This is verging on a 'ship of Theseus' discussion. In general but there's no hard in long held corals or aquaculturing them.
Tavero
Well-Known Member
I mentioned bamboo because it has an predetermined date of death (expiration date). Same with autoflowering cannabis, determined tomatoes, beets, raddish and many other plants. I don't think this is the same with zoas. And usually these primitive animals have such an impressive regeneration ability, there shouldn't be long term permanent damage. My zoa frags usually die fast, in a few days to weeks.
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