Does my Flame Angel has a problem?

[Jubal_Harshaw]

Today, I was working on my tank and after I was done I sat and watched my fish. When I discovered that my Flame Angel has a kinda sheer white face. I can see it under certain light but not that much when the lights are in feeding mode. He is behaving normal, is very active, feeds, and there is no scratching. No other fish show any symptoms or white face. No fish were added recently. Does he have a disease? Sorry for the bad pictures, but as I said he is moving around a lot like he knows I am taking pictures of him.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Looks like head and lateral line erosion. It generally comes as a result of poor diet or water parameters. What have you been feeding and what are your params?

 

[MnFish1]

It is lighter. It is also not entirely on the area HLLE (Head and lateral line erosion) would occur - but - if I had to say - I would agree with @Sharkbait19 - its HLLE or a relative. @Jay Hemdal will (hopefully) have a better answer. It could be a mere nutritional deficiency. To me it's not typical of HLLE - Can you give any other info - I.e. how quickly, etc did it happen

 

[vetteguy53081]

This is HLLE which does Not always start at the head or face but generally does. The erosion on the face is accelarated showing the appearanceof the skin pealing from the face or eroding away. Holes generally on the face, head and along the lateral line of the fish which all are showing and while providing good nutrition, low stress and good water quality can help - this may heal over somewhat but will never return to normal.
What foods are being offered to this fish and what is current ammonia-nitrate-ph ?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It could be a more diffuse HLLE. Is it still feeding o.k, and not breathing rapidly?

I'm guessing you picked your R2R name after a Robert Heinlein character? My favorite author! Don't be a stranger!

Jay

 

[Jubal_Harshaw]

I am feeding Brine Shrimp and Mysis Shrimp.

Nitrate is 14.5 ppm
Phosphate is high at 0.75 ppm yesterday after water change it went down to 0.5 ppm
pH 8.35

I have a refugium and I started dosing to reduce the Phosphate.

 

[Fish Think Pink]

+1 vote change to LRS Reef Frenzy and some quality frozen food varieties, like PE frozen mysis are naturally gut loaded

perhaps add vitamins though they will not absorb well in frozen foods

 

[Jubal_Harshaw]

It could be a more diffuse HLLE. Is it still feeding o.k, and not breathing rapidly?

I'm guessing you picked your R2R name after a Robert Heinlein character? My favorite author! Don't be a stranger!

Jay

It is feeding well and no rapid breathing.

My last name is Heinlein.

 

[Jubal_Harshaw]

+1 vote change to LRS Reef Frenzy and some quality frozen food varieties, like PE frozen mysis are naturally gut loaded

perhaps add vitamins though they will not absorb well in frozen foods

This is what I feed them. What vitamins do you recommend? Where can I get vitamins?

 

[MnFish1]

This is HLLE which does Not always start at the head or face but generally does. The erosion on the face is accelarated showing the appearanceof the skin pealing from the face or eroding away. Holes generally on the face, head and along the lateral line of the fish which all are showing and while providing good nutrition, low stress and good water quality can help - this may heal over somewhat but will never return to normal.
What foods are being offered to this fish and what is current ammonia-nitrate-ph ?

Thanks for the definitive answer. 1. No one knows what HLLE is - whether it's a virus, related to carbon, related to something else. But - Now we know - Its HLLE

 

[MnFish1]

This is what I feed them. What vitamins do you recommend? Where can I get vitamins?

One issue - if you melted one of those cubes - there would not be that much food there. IMHO

 

[MnFish1]

It could be a more diffuse HLLE. Is it still feeding o.k, and not breathing rapidly?

I'm guessing you picked your R2R name after a Robert Heinlein character? My favorite author! Don't be a stranger!

Jay

Wouldn't HLLE develop more slowly? Ie - not overnight? But - I don't know how long it has progressed, etc - this was just a general question

 

[Fish Think Pink]

This is some of what I feed mine - I alternate

If I'm traveling and need to leave family to feed fish, this gives an idea of how I mix above into below 'cubes' using left over food tray... but you don't have to be so fancy.

 

[Fish Think Pink]

Selcon is popular vitamin...

Just like for the humans in the family, I'd prefer they eat varied and balanced diet. I use that same rule for our fish. Quality foods are better sources of vitamins for humans than added vitamins, and in my opinion that holds true for fish food.

I'd recommend LRS Reef Frenzy and other foods not limited to above - think of your fish (like a human) as just being diagnosed with something... I buy strawberries because I fear my child will otherwise have scurvy... provide quality (frozen - not a fan of pellets and flakes, though good ones out there) and varied foods to ensure health.

 

[Jubal_Harshaw]

I had a lot of carbon in the sump. I removed that, getting Selcon, which I will use with freeze dried Mysis Shrimp. Add some more food choice and LRS. I normally have them one cube. How much should I feed?

Two Clowns, One Diamond Goby, One Citrus Goby, One Royal Gramma, One Yellow Coris Wrasse, One Cleaner Shrimp.

I will keep you posted.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Wouldn't HLLE develop more slowly? Ie - not overnight? But - I don't know how long it has progressed, etc - this was just a general question

Yes, that's why I said it "could be". Typical HLLE has much more discrete margins. There is another malady that I call epithelial thinning that is probably this. Here is all I know about it (from my disease book)

There are some fish (Hepatus tangs, groupers and walleye for example) that can develop two issues that resemble each other; Classic HLLE and "Epithelial Thinning". Classic HLLE, with the deep coalescing pits, is tied to carbon use in every study that has been done. Epithelial Thinning is where the fish's skin around the head becomes gets pale, gradually becomes thin, but no deep pits develop. The one study that has been done of this seems to indicate a tie-in with metal toxicity, but it is more likely related to general stress and dietary issues. It is possible for both symptoms to occur at the same time.

Jay

 

[DanTheReefer]

I had a lot of carbon in the sump. I removed that, getting Selcon, which I will use with freeze dried Mysis Shrimp. Add some more food choice and LRS. I normally have them one cube. How much should I feed?

Two Clowns, One Diamond Goby, One Citrus Goby, One Royal Gramma, One Yellow Coris Wrasse, One Cleaner Shrimp.

I will keep you posted.

Good move. Carbon is a powerful tool but it can cause some goofy, potentially catastrophic issues. In the freshwater side it’s been linked to hole in head disease. I think it’s something to run in a reactor for a day or two when you notice your water starting to yellow (water appears yellow in white bucket or with lights out on tank), or if you suspect a toxin. It quickly makes the water clear again, so not much benefit to keeping it in there, but potentially a bit of harm.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I had a lot of carbon in the sump. I removed that, getting Selcon, which I will use with freeze dried Mysis Shrimp. Add some more food choice and LRS. I normally have them one cube. How much should I feed?

Two Clowns, One Diamond Goby, One Citrus Goby, One Royal Gramma, One Yellow Coris Wrasse, One Cleaner Shrimp.

I will keep you posted.

Unfortunately, just removing the carbon doesn't help. If this was carbon-caused, the dust (fines) in the tank will continue to be an issue. I had one concrete vat that we used carbon on. Fish would routinely get HLLE in it. We removed the carbon and changed all the water and fish would still get HLLE in it. We tore the tank and filter down, washed everything out and set it back up and never had an HLLE issue with that tank for the next decade.

That said, I don't see classic carbon-caused HLLE in this case.

Jay

 

[Sharkbait19]

Good move. Carbon is a powerful tool but it can cause some goofy, potentially catastrophic issues. In the freshwater side it’s been linked to hole in head disease. I think it’s something to run in a reactor for a day or two when you notice your water starting to yellow (water appears yellow in white bucket or with lights out on tank), or if you suspect a toxin. It quickly makes the water clear again, so not much benefit to keeping it in there, but potentially a bit of harm.

Do you have any links that link carbon to HITH in fresh? Every case I’ve come across was due to high nitrate and fish being kept in improper parameters (such as Oscars in high pH water).

 

[DanTheReefer]

Do you have any links that link carbon to HITH in fresh? Every case I’ve come across was due to high nitrate and fish being kept in improper parameters (such as Oscars in high pH water).

Here’s the abstract of a scholarly study on salt water. Good news is it seemed to have cleared up in 50 days by removing carbon.

Effects of full-stream carbon filtration on the development of head and lateral line erosion syndrome (HLLES) in ocean surgeon - PubMed

Head and lateral line erosion syndrome (HLLES) is a common but very poorly understood disease of marine aquarium fish. One suspected etiology is the use of granulated activated carbon (GAC) to filter the water. Seventy-two ocean surgeons Acanthurus bahianus were distributed among three...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov