Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[DrZoidburg]

It wouldn't be pure dithionite, other wise it wouldn't work at all for ammonia. Sodium thiolsulfate is really not stable it undergoes autocatalytic oxidation process. I agree really pure fresh samples are clear, but if left out or exposed to ph changes usually turn to yellow. A lot of samples are contaminated with polysulfides. Its part of one of the ways its made. Look at api conditioner for example, that does have thiolsulfate, and it is yellow tinted. Chances are they would not use it if it had a long shelf life. That could give a clue that if is not used in there. Another thing that would make thiolsulfate useless. If it is in there it is one of the ingredients that break chloramines. The bisulfite will also. Plus "
"Dithionite undergoes acid hydrolytic disproportionation to thiosulfate and bisulfite:[2]
2 S2O2−4 + H2O → S2O2−3 + 2 HSO−3
It also undergoes alkaline hydrolytic disproportionation to sulfite and sulfide:[2]
3 Na2S2O4 + 6 NaOH → 5 Na2SO3 + Na2S + 3 H2O"
Thiolsulfate is a reducer. If this is a strong enough reducer. Reduced ammonia is amide. Which would still test out on ammonia /ammonium kit and like I believe the seneye. Probably not on nitrite kit. In the case of nitrite you would need an oxidizer for it to not read on nitrite kit . Hense bifulfite.

I give you some examples of real ways to test yours. My nose and nerve endings are pretty accurate lol. I wont disagree that it is the best way to test melting points. One would actually need the proper machine which cost a ridiculous amount. Cant really do this reliably with most thermometers. Your taking thread out of context. Yes challenge the idea please. Vinylsulfonic acid alone is toxic to a degree. Not as toxic as ammonia. It also acts to bind with it making the more evil of the two not as toxic as well as itself. Again this is why you see tests building up levels when used indicating it is in there. Not to mention the myriad of things it can react with. The bound ammonia slowly getting into blood stream is what is doing. Then in here it reacts with other things in the body you see? Electrolytes, other amines, the blood itself, and others etc...

 

[Malcontent]

Additionally, I always suspected ChlorGuard and AmGuard were the two active ingredients in Prime sold separately.

If people are so dang curious someone should start a GoFundMe to send Prime to a deformulation lab. Then patent the formula so Seachem can't use them anymore.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Also look back to equilibrium picture it would be mostly ammonium at tank and that ph you tested. How do you even know it was exactly .25 ppm specifically ammonia in your test? Did you do some serious math? The thing is a lot of these companies do use the same patented formulations in different concentrations. Theirs ways around it. That it is why it is proprietary not patented. I test this on erase-cl because its what I have.

 

[taricha]

Thiolsulfate is a reducer. If this is a strong enough reducer. Reduced ammonia is amide. Which would still test out on ammonia /ammonium kit and like I believe the seneye. Probably not on nitrite kit. In the case of nitrite you would need an oxidizer for it to not read on nitrite kit . Hense bifulfite.

Are you saying Prime active ingredient is actually an oxidizer?
Because it's not.
Measure it. Prime bottoms out my ORP probe at like -500mV. It's a crazy strong reducer.

 

[DrZoidburg]

It is a little more complicated than just orp telling whether or not it is an oxidizer or reducer. Did you consider other ingredients causing this, the fact that these substances are bound to sodium, or many other reasons? Maybe you need to do more tests on prime. I also get low numbers with a calibrated lab grade 400$+ tester. With said oxidizer bisulfite. Also I see other thread yours reads opposite. I think you should consider calibrating yours with a valid solution.

 

[Dan_P]

It wouldn't be pure dithionite, other wise it wouldn't work at all for ammonia. Sodium thiolsulfate is really not stable it undergoes autocatalytic oxidation process. I agree really pure fresh samples are clear, but if left out or exposed to ph changes usually turn to yellow. A lot of samples are contaminated with polysulfides. Its part of one of the ways its made. Look at api conditioner for example, that does have thiolsulfate, and it is yellow tinted. Chances are they would not use it if it had a long shelf life. That could give a clue that if is not used in there. Another thing that would make thiolsulfate useless. If it is in there it is one of the ingredients that break chloramines. The bisulfite will also. Plus "
"Dithionite undergoes acid hydrolytic disproportionation to thiosulfate and bisulfite:[2]
2 S2O2−4 + H2O → S2O2−3 + 2 HSO−3
It also undergoes alkaline hydrolytic disproportionation to sulfite and sulfide:[2]
3 Na2S2O4 + 6 NaOH → 5 Na2SO3 + Na2S + 3 H2O"
Thiolsulfate is a reducer. If this is a strong enough reducer. Reduced ammonia is amide. Which would still test out on ammonia /ammonium kit and like I believe the seneye. Probably not on nitrite kit. In the case of nitrite you would need an oxidizer for it to not read on nitrite kit . Hense bifulfite.

I give you some examples of real ways to test yours. My nose and nerve endings are pretty accurate lol. I wont disagree that it is the best way to test melting points. One would actually need the proper machine which cost a ridiculous amount. Cant really do this reliably with most thermometers. Your taking thread out of context. Yes challenge the idea please. Vinylsulfonic acid alone is toxic to a degree. Not as toxic as ammonia. It also acts to bind with it making the more evil of the two not as toxic as well as itself. Again this is why you see tests building up levels when used indicating it is in there. Not to mention the myriad of things it can react with. The bound ammonia slowly getting into blood stream is what is doing. Then in here it reacts with other things in the body you see? Electrolytes, other amines, the blood itself, and others etc...

“Reduced ammonia is amide. Which would still test out on ammonia /ammonium kit and like I believe the seneye.”

These two sentences are incorrect.

 

[Malcontent]

I would chip in $1,000 to crowdfund deformulation. Just to end speculation on Prime's ingredients once and for all.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Here you see effect sodium has on orp reading. Partially neutralized with sodium hydroxide.

 

[DrZoidburg]

“Reduced ammonia is amide. Which would still test out on ammonia /ammonium kit and like I believe the seneye.”

These two sentences are incorrect.

"Azanide is the IUPAC-sanctioned name for the anion NH−
2. The term is obscure: derivatives of NH−
2 are almost invariably referred to as amides,[1][2][3] despite the fact that amide also refers to the organic functional group –C(O)NR
2. The anion NH−
2 is the conjugate base of ammonia, so it is formed by the self-ionization of ammonia. It is produced by deprotonation of ammonia, usually with strong bases or an alkali metal. Azanide has a H–N–H bond angle of 104.5°." sorry dan

 

[Dan_P]

"Azanide is the IUPAC-sanctioned name for the anion NH−
2. The term is obscure: derivatives of NH−
2 are almost invariably referred to as amides,[1][2][3] despite the fact that amide also refers to the organic functional group –C(O)NR
2. The anion NH−
2 is the conjugate base of ammonia, so it is formed by the self-ionization of ammonia. It is produced by deprotonation of ammonia, usually with strong bases or an alkali metal. Azanide has a H–N–H bond angle of 104.5°." sorry dan

Umm, this information is pretty much totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. Sorry Dr.

 

[Dan_P]

I would chip in $1,000 to crowdfund deformulation. Just to end speculation on Prime's ingredients once and for all.

Maybe save your contribution to “what the heck is Prime” (it dechlorinates, it does not detoxify, does it matter what is?) for the investigation of ICP vendors “just how accurate are their results?”

 

[DrZoidburg]

Ok lets pretend it doesn't matter. I agree it doesn't really it was an example. Thiolsulfate is likely not strong enough to reduce ammonia. None of you can say what ingredients are so how can you say it detoxifies or not? Except in case of these inverts and a seneye test? When the bottle specifically says it detoxifies. Going back above. How would it do this? Because "this person says" it has dithionite? Why do you folks think it doesn't detoxify in this case? It wouldn't work if that all that is in it. I propose good mechanisms why some of these things your finding happened. My challenge to you is test your strips/seneye to already bound ammonia, not by seachem, amguard, or anything. Use an amino, or other bound ammonia. Then you can say certainly seneye does show drops because of binding, or not. I don't think it will show much. Also challenge you to even know what's in it. Also challenge to read orp with a calibrated not reverse reading meter. Then you could possibly propose other chemical mechanisms. If you closed some of the loopholes in these test it might be a better conclusion. Do a char test to see if you get carbon residue. A lot of people have saved their fish in using this. Obviously it detoxifies ammonia somehow in those cases.

 

[taricha]

It is a little more complicated than just orp telling whether or not it is an oxidizer or reducer. ...Maybe you need to do more tests on prime.... I think you should consider calibrating yours with a valid solution.

I do a two point calibration with hanna ORP standards at 240 and 470mV.

Or don't take my word for it....

FWIW, Prime will lower ORP. Depending on when you added it, it might have caused the downward spike shortly after 12 on Jul 23.

Here's another account of Prime repeatedly lowering ORP
and
Here's two more people in a thread simultaneously realizing it's Prime that dropped their ORP.

I get the feeling you are trying to send me on a wild goose chase. You keep throwing out assertions that need to be backed up by evidence or citation, which you don't provide.
You could've searched the forum for "Prime ORP" just as easily as me. You could've checked that thiosulfate solution is actually clear, before asserting they must all be yellow.
You could've added prime to saltwater and checked pH, and found it doesn't move it massively.

But you just made wrong assertions instead.

Fundamentally, you keep saying there are many N containing substances that will give false positives for NH3 with Seneye and the Seachem color changing films. Without bothering to show it's true or cite any source.

Also challenge you to even know what's in it.

Challenge not accepted.

A lot of people have saved their fish in using this.

...from chlorine in tap water, not from ammonia.

 

[DrZoidburg]

I don't have to you guys are the ones with more to prove. Too many loop holes to be convincing. I think 90,000 people who say it either saved their fish from nitrite, or ammonia are more compelling.

 

[taricha]

I think 90,000 people who say it either saved their fish from nitrite, or ammonia are more compelling.

Nitrite? now you are just trolling.
thanks for the laughs, I'm out.

 

[Righteous]

I don't have to you guys are the ones with more to prove. Too many loop holes to be convincing. I think 90,000 people who say it either saved their fish from nitrite, or ammonia are more compelling.

That right there is what we call the “burden of proof fallacy”. If you’re making a claim that prime detoxifies ammonia, the burden of proof is with you to prove that, not someone else to disprove it. No one yet has been able to prove it can detoxify ammmonia, hence the burden of proof is with anyone who wants to claim it does, not for those that claim it doesn’t.

Some of the other logical fallacies being made include anecdotal data, special pleading, bandwagoning, etc.

If you can show a properly designed experiment with controls that demonstrates ammonia detoxification, then people will listen.

 

[DrZoidburg]

@taricha Yes it does claim to do that. Not trolling. Look at some of the 130,000+ comments on amazon. Do you consider the fact that your orp reading could be low because of just the difference in ingredient ratio? That is possible too. Imo you guys have the burden of proof still. (many loopholes here) These guys still didn't prove it in the case of fish.

 

[Dan_P]

Ok lets pretend it doesn't matter. I agree it doesn't really it was an example. Thiolsulfate is likely not strong enough to reduce ammonia. None of you can say what ingredients are so how can you say it detoxifies or not?

Correct. I do not know what Prime is. I do know that Prime reduces chlorine bleach. I do know that Prime does not decrease the level of free ammonia, and therefore, does not reduce the total ammonia content of saltwater.

I am highly confident that “ammonia toxicity” means a negative health effect caused by a free ammonia concentration above some concentration and I infer that to “detoxify ammonia” can only mean the reduction of the free ammonia concentration. Seachem claims do not contradict this inference.

Seachem suggests the use of its colorimetric free ammonia detection badge to detect free ammonia and to detect free ammonia reduction. I calibrated the Seachem badge and it does change color intensity with increasing free ammonia and in a linear manner. The Seachem ammonia alert badge does not detect any change in free ammonia concentration when Prime is added to artificial seawater containing ammonia.

The Seneye device which I also calibrated is another colorimetric free ammonia detecting film. It can detect lower concentrations of free ammonia than the Seachem ammonia alert badge and responds much more quickly. It too did not detect a change in free ammonia concentration when Prime was added to artificial seawater containing ammonia.

In summary, Seachem claims Prime detoxifies ammonia by reducing the concentration of free ammonia. Our data cannot detect any free ammonia reduction in artificial seawater when Prime is added.

Because "this person says" it has dithionite? Why do you folks think it doesn't detoxify in this case? It wouldn't work if that all that is in it. I propose good mechanisms why some of these things your finding happened. My challenge to you is test your strips/seneye to already bound ammonia, not by seachem, amguard, or anything. Use an amino, or other bound ammonia. Then you can say certainly seneye does show drops because of binding, or not. I don't think it will show much.

The colorimetric films are designed to detect only free ammonia. It cannot even detect NH4+, a proton bound free ammonia. There is no credible evidence that amino acids or other organic amines interfere with these films.

Also challenge you to even know what's in it. Also challenge to read orp with a calibrated not reverse reading meter. Then you could possibly propose other chemical mechanisms. If you closed some of the loopholes in these test it might be a better conclusion. Do a char test to see if you get carbon residue. A lot of people have saved their fish in using this. Obviously it detoxifies ammonia somehow in those cases.

The claims about the effectiveness of Prime are anecdotal. I am not aware of any scientific data that Prime “saves” fish. Even Seachem does not provide scientific data to support their claims.

 

[DrZoidburg]

When you address the flaws in this test it would be more buyable. @Dan_P How do you know that seneye only picks those up if you did not test?

 

[Righteous]

Imo you guys have the burden of proof still.

That may be your opinion, but the problem is that leads to a poor conclusion. Not trying to be a jerk, but it’s a common fallacy. The issue is that Seachem has the burden of proof, because what they are claiming is both not supported by any data, and goes against what scientific and chemical data there is.

Look at some of the 130,000+ comments on amazon

Aside from the fact that lots of Amazon reviews are faked, this is again a logical fallacy. At its most basic it doesn’t account for confirmation bias. It’s called the bandwagon fallacy, because it simply can’t be used to prove anything.