Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[The0wn4g3]

Certainty not a good look...

@brandon429
Just FYI, I re-attempted this with API Nitrite kit.
With or without Prime and with or without 1ppm ammonia and ~30ppm NO3, I can't get it to generate a false positive, and with that I'm out of ideas for how a false positive NO2 test is even possible.


It seems hilariously likely that the positive claims around Prime about ammonia, nitrite and nitrate detoxification as well as the criticisms that Prime prevents cycling bacteria may all be based on the simple fact that it breaks a lot of hobby test kits, and makes them show zero incorrectly.

The description on Amazon says...

Prime converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank's biofilter. Prime may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/ nitrite toxicity. Prime detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them.

And later...

REMOVER: Seachem Prime immediately and permanently removes chlorine and chloramine, successfully allowing the bio filter to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate while they are detoxified for 48 hours.

It sound to me that seachem is using some subtle language here. It's not claiming to detoxify the ammonia but to detoxify chlorine which allows the biofilter to process the ammonia.

 

[Dan_P]

@brandon429
Just FYI, I re-attempted this with API Nitrite kit.
With or without Prime and with or without 1ppm ammonia and ~30ppm NO3, I can't get it to generate a false positive, and with that I'm out of ideas for how a false positive NO2 test is even possible.


It seems hilariously likely that the positive claims around Prime about ammonia, nitrite and nitrate detoxification as well as the criticisms that Prime prevents cycling bacteria may all be based on the simple fact that it breaks a lot of hobby test kits, and makes them show zero incorrectly.

The cycling mysteries of the past and future may all just evaporate now.

 

[brandon429]

the further we peel the further explanation we're going to need from retailers

I asked BRS why they advocate selling mb7 bacteria for anaerobic denitrification bricks. curious what the response will be

didnt want to post the video here from youtube as I know T's focus is Prime

 

[taricha]

I asked BRS why they advocate selling mb7 bacteria for anaerobic denitrification bricks. curious what the response will be

didnt want to post the video here from youtube as I know T's focus is Prime

hey Brandon, this thread's about Prime.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Certainty not a good look...

The description on Amazon says...

Prime converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank's biofilter. Prime may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/ nitrite toxicity. Prime detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them.

And later...

REMOVER: Seachem Prime immediately and permanently removes chlorine and chloramine, successfully allowing the bio filter to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate while they are detoxified for 48 hours.

It sound to me that seachem is using some subtle language here. It's not claiming to detoxify the ammonia but to detoxify chlorine which allows the biofilter to process the ammonia.

I hope that is not what they actually mean, and that they have some real mechanism in mind or evidence of utility for dealing with ammonia.

 

[The0wn4g3]

I hope that is not what they actually mean, and that they have some real mechanism in mind or evidence of utility for dealing with ammonia.

You would certainly hope so, otherwise I can claim saltwater detoxifies ammonia!

 

[brandon429]

Tank emergency - need to lower ammonia!

TL;DR, how to lower ammonia FAST? Am already doing large PWC but ammonia is still >0.5 ppm!! Unfortunately had a tank leak and had to move all my livestock into a new tank (slightly larger so hey, small victory). Unfortunately I stirred up the sand bed which is about 1.5 inches deep, and the...

www.reef2reef.com

that is the classic situation in which prime is cross sold among peers. Valid responses to take tbd but right there is the actual marketing impulse at work.

 

[Ultra Aquatics]

I would not hold a company on what their description on Amazon states. Many times that description is created or edited over time by 3rd party sellers.

 

[Miami Reef]

Based on this. Does prime detoxify under 5ppm ammonia? I need the rundown because I don’t understand this thread.

 

[ingchr1]

I would not hold a company on what their description on Amazon states. Many times that description is created or edited over time by 3rd party sellers.

Here's the product description directly from Seachem:

Info: Seachem Prime® product description​

Prime® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and saltwater. Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and detoxifies ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime® will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.

When transporting or quarantining fish, use Seachem StressGuard™. When adding new fish, use Stability®. Both are ideal for use with Prime®.

Nearly all companies manufacture a product that removes chlorine. None of those, however, can compare in quality, concentration, or effectiveness to Seachem®’s flagship product: Prime®. Prime® is the second most concentrated dechlorinator on the market after our own aquavitro alpha®. A single 100 mL bottle will treat 1000 US gallons of tap water. Prime® will remove both chlorine and chloramines from municipal water supplies.

Prime® also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. It is very important to understand how those two functions work together. All dechlorinators operate through a chemical process known as reduction. In this process, toxic dissolved chlorine gas (Cl2) is converted into non-toxic chloride ions (Cl-). The reduction process also breaks the bonds between chlorine and nitrogen atoms in the chloramine molecule (NH2Cl), freeing the chlorine atoms and replacing them with hydrogen (H) to create ammonia (NH3).

Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem® takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process.

Be very careful when purchasing water conditioners. If your municipality includes chloramines in the water supplies, a standard sodium thiosulfate dechlorinator is not enough. Prime® promotes the natural production and restoration of the slime coat rather than relying on artificial or non-native slime compounds. A further bonus for the reef hobbyist—Prime® will not overactivate protein skimmers.

One FAQ

FAQ: How long does Seachem Prime® stay bound to the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates?​

Prime® will bind up those compounds for up to 48 hours. If they are still present after that time frame, they are released back into the water, unless Prime® is re-dosed accordingly. Also, if your ammonia or nitrite levels are increasing within a 24-hour period, Prime® can be re-dosed every 24 hours.

Another FAQ

FAQ: How fast does Seachem Prime® work?​

Prime® removes chlorine and chloramine almost instantly upon being added to water, and will immediately detoxify ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. The chlorine and chloramine is permanently removed (they are broken down into a form that will not re-associate in water) and the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate detoxification lasts for 48 hours. If you are dosing Prime® specifically to detoxify ammonia or nitrite, you should re-dose Prime® every 48 hours until the bacteria colonies in the tank are large and stable enough to consume these chemicals.

 

[brandon429]

The results of this thread seem to dismiss the faq's as fake claims? I'm shocked at how clearly they write that it detoxifies and then here in this thread when measured precisely it didn't. I wonder if inability to measure free ammonia accurately in prior years kept the veil pulled over eyes at large/everything read .25 for the last 26 years?

 

[Miami Reef]

@taricha @Dan_P @brandon429 @Randy Holmes-Farley

I did some snooping on seachem and I found this relatively new product called “AmGuard” and I found information on Prime that you do not want to miss.

Ammonia can exist in two forms: free and ionized. It is only the free form that is toxic. Traditional ammonia test kits convert all ammonia to free ammonia by raising pH to 12–14; at this pH AmGuard™ cannot function and thus a false positive reading will result. For long term ammonia control, use Seachem Stability® and Matrix™. Use Ammonia Alert®or MultiTest™ Free & Total Ammonia to directly monitor levels of free ammonia. AmGuard™ also removes chlorine and chloramines.

Seachem - AmGuard

www.seachem.com

And here is another source (Aquarium Blue Prints)

In order to detoxify 2 ppm of ammonia, you have to overdose Prime by 5 times the normal amount. With Am Guard, you only need to use a normal dose to achieve the result.

Not to mention that Prime can only treat 2 ppm of ammonia at most. With AmGuard, you can go treat more than 5 ppm.

Seachem AmGuard vs. Seachem Prime: Which is Better at Detoxifying Ammonia?

Ammonia is very toxic to fish even in small amounts. If your aquarium has not been properly cycled, then you could get ammonia spikes. One of the potential

aquariumblueprints.com

 

[Dan_P]

@taricha @Dan_P @brandon429 @Randy Holmes-Farley

I did some snooping on seachem and I found this relatively new product called “AmGuard” and I found information on Prime that you do not want to miss.

Seachem - AmGuard

www.seachem.com

And here is another source (Aquarium Blue Prints)

Seachem AmGuard vs. Seachem Prime: Which is Better at Detoxifying Ammonia?

Ammonia is very toxic to fish even in small amounts. If your aquarium has not been properly cycled, then you could get ammonia spikes. One of the potential

aquariumblueprints.com

Thank you for sharing this information.

Our test results show that “detoxifying” ammonia with Prime does not occur in saltwater and found test interference by Prime the likely reason behind the claim that Prime “detoxifies” nitrite and nitrate. Prime does neutralize chlorine. We did not get a chance to test AmGuard.

Anyone can easily test the AmGuard claim with the Seachem ammonia alert badge by measuring the free ammonia in a sample of aquarium water containing ammonium chloride and then dosing the recommended amount of AmGuard. If the colored circle returns to its original yellow color, the product works. Stirring the test solution is important.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Based on this. Does prime detoxify under 5ppm ammonia? I need the rundown because I don’t understand this thread.

If it does, we do not understand how it does.

[edited later: this post of mine later in this thread may show how Prime could work:

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

Yes I know what it is. The water solution would still probably have a higher boiling point, and a higher density than water. If example 30% solution of VS is upwards of 1.29g/ml, and a boiling point less than water. I found that while not using a thermometer erase-cl it was seemingly lower than...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Dan_P]

Based on this. Does prime detoxify under 5ppm ammonia? I need the rundown because I don’t understand this thread.

Prime does not “detoxify” total ammonia under 5 ppm.

Seachem uses the term “detoxify” to mean lower the concentration of total ammonia. We found no evidence that Prime does anything to the total ammonia concentration in saltwater.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Using erase cl- brand which I think has the same chemicals. I think I have identified the proprietary ingredients in this with some legit testing. I can show you how to test this with yours. I will also explain why it is not as toxic to fish but as you see here it is toxic to inverts. Will provide more info later when I get home.

 

[DrZoidburg]

My thoughts on does prime actually detoxify ammonia.

Only in one instance in the case of fish can I say could be toxic. I will talk more on this later. Other wise it is safe. To inverts yes it can be toxic. Now I have not tested this on prime I tested this on erase-cl brand. Which I think to have identical "proprietary" ingredients. Using erase-cl...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[taricha]

My thoughts on does prime actually detoxify ammonia.

Only in one instance in the case of fish can I say could be toxic. I will talk more on this later. Other wise it is safe. To inverts yes it can be toxic. Now I have not tested this on prime I tested this on erase-cl brand. Which I think to have identical "proprietary" ingredients. Using erase-cl...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks for the post and info @DrZoidburg
I'll give it a couple of read-throughs and reply.

 

[taricha]

Now for the fun stuff. First test ph. Second find density. Third find boiling point(good way not with thermometer based on feel). Fourth heat to dryness. Fifth heat past dryness to near decomposition. Sixth flame test observed with the iconic color of sodium flame. Seventh heat to decomposition. Some of this may be left out or lost in translation. I will mention what I observed along the way. Crystal clear solution with ph 6 acidic "proprietary" salts listed as a mixture of bisulfites, and sulfonates. (for me that was the give away) Density 1.2588 g/mL average. Boiling point very low I could touch the metal briefly it was around 200 degrees F. Heat to dryness no smell. Heating past this gives you some more clues.

This is a fun read, and you did a lot to actually try to say what could be in this product that isn't Prime. Why not just do this on Prime if that's what you want to talk about?
Also, I'm super impressed by your nose and nerve-endings. I have no such calibrated fingers or nose to determine boiling point by feel (!) or identify compounds by smelling their heated products.

Firstly they showed test that it showed no nitrite. Why? Sodium bisulfite will react with nitrite making nitrate. This will not read on that test kit as shown there.

I'm sure there are a lot of compounds that could break an API ammonia, and Red Sea NO3 / NO2 test. Prime contains a chemical that does.

Secondly you see them suggest it is a thiolsulfate salt. Well its not even really dilute solutions have a tint of yellow color.

Thiosulfate also broke the API ammonia and Red sea NO2/3 test, and is also a strong reducer like Prime. I don't claim to know what is or isn't in Prime, and I don't think I said I did. We're mostly just looking at chemical effect - not really trying to say what it is or isn't.

But if you want to, check out the following
This person says...
"One set of “detoxifying” products is Seachem Prime and Seachem Safe. These are sodium dithionite. Lab tests confirm these products are pure sodium dithionite and nothing else. Sodium dithionite removes chlorine because it is a reducing agent and chlorine gas is a strong oxidizing agent.

In water sodium dithionite decomposes to sodium thiosulfate and Sulfurous acid. The sodium thiosulfate and the sulfurous acid then reduce the chlorine in the water:..."

I don't know if any of your tests would've demonstrate that Prime is or isn't dithionite (if you had done them on Prime).


Also, It seems you are just wrong about the lack of yellow as a proof of absence for anything related to thiosulfate.
below is straight sodium thiosulfate (left: crystals , right: dissolved - crystal clear)

Seems like it's totally possible to make a solution with stuff very similar to thiosulfate that is crystal clear.

Thirdly you see them test with seneye and test strips. They claim no drop in bound measurable free ammonia. Why? The seneye, and strips are still picking up the ammonia molecule. I challenge them to test with another source of bound ammonia. Like maybe trimethylamine solution, urea salts, or amino acids. A lot of those can trick tests. I would bet it would still pick up free ammonia.

It sounds like you claiming that these color changing films are reacting to ammonium, NH4??
If so, @Dan_P has shared data with me that took the same amount of total ammonia and showed the seneye measures different levels of NH3 as you move the pH up/down very much as expected. Maybe he'll post it here to illustrate.

Also, all the papers I've seen on colorimetric ammonia sensing films show they are pretty darn specific to NH3. Have you seen a reference or demonstration otherwise?

I do love the idea of challenging these films with amino acids or urea - you should totally do it and demonstrate if the seachem disks misread a significant part of amino acids or urea etc as NH3.

Nor did they ever test ph of solution they were testing. Likely the ph if they tested was not much more or less than seawater they started with making ammonium the dominant species anyway.

This is also untrue. We accounted for pH explicitly.
In the amphipod test, for instance all pH samples were held to 8.5-8.6.

Also, did you try adding normal sized doses of Prime to saltwater? We found it moves the pH barely at all. Did you see otherwise?

I do believe it does measure ammonium but conversions need to be applied. I forget where I saw this for reference. Ammonium would still get bound.

Would love to see this. Like I said, it's a different story than the papers Dan and I ran across on these color changing ammonia sensing films.

Now lets go back to prime. In my opinion it is toxic to inverts, as well as fish really not to the point of death if you keep it reasonable, and don't just count on it. The way it works is that it binds the ammonia/ammonium compound, making them get into the fish at a much slower rate. This is why you see test kits going up, and up over time. As well as it being harder to be biodegraded by bacteria because it is a more strongly bound and bigger compound than their used to. Why is it toxic to inverts? Simply this at whatever rate it gets absorbed into their bodies is unknown, but you can see in their thread it does kill them. It is because of one of the ingredients! Vinylsulfonic acid complexes get into their blood stream faster.

not 100% sure what you are getting at, but I think you are trying to make an argument that in the amphipod test in post 44, it was Prime that killed the pods, and not ammonia..... even though both samples with ammonia killed the pods with or without prime, and another sample without ammonia that DID have the same anount of prime left the pods totally unaffected - and all samples were held at the same pH.

4 treatments - 100mL bottles each with amphipods. Water mixed, dosed, and pH adjusted in separate 500mL containers, then exchanged into the amphipod bottles.

bottle 1
Tank water adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

bottle 2
Tank water spiked with ammonia drops, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

bottle 3
Tank water spiked with ammonia drops and Prime in recommended amounts, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

bottle 4
Tank water with Prime only, same amount as bottle 3, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

If I misunderstood you on anything, let me know.
It was interesting, but I don't think I see the holes you do.

 

[Malcontent]

I don't know why people have been so interested in figuring out the ingredients of Prime over the years. It's most likely nothing more than a mediocre dechlorinator that doesn't detoxify anything other than chlorine.

I wouldn't assume Seachem's claims are true then try to find a chemical that fulfills all those roles. I also wouldn't assume there's only one active ingredient in Prime.

There's probably a second ingredient to bind ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate that's completely non-functional.