Dosing mb7 adding nutrients

p1u5h13r4m24

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When battling algaes in a reef tank many suggest to use a bacteria product such as MB7 to out compete the algae. Another form of action would be to rebalance the nutrients to the red field ratio and allow bacteria a chance to feed and grow to out compete the algae.
I may be wrong on this, but this is how I’m understanding it. I have used bacteria before to successfully out compete cyano/dinos, however my nutrient levels dropped very low. A month after stopping the bacteria the algae came right back and I believe it was from nutrients being low and out of balance.

Scenario 1: so is the idea to keep dosing nutrients to keep nutrients balanced while dosing bacteria? I am assuming in this scenario the bacteria levels will eventually grow higher than the algae levels and they can out compete the algae regardless of there being enough nutrients for both.

scenerio 2: dose the bacteria and not any nutrients so that the bacterias starve out the algaes of nutrients? The problem would then be unbalanced nutrients at the end and a possible relapse?

I can’t seem to find a clear answer and in short what I’m asking is. Do you dose nutrients while dosing mb7, because dosing mb7 is essentially carbon dosing and will lower nutrient levels.

thanks in advance!
 

blaxsun

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The first thing I would do is figure out why your nutrients are bottoming out and address that. Otherwise this is going to be a "wash, rinse and repeat" kind of scenario. Other than coralline algae I can't really seem to grow much in the way of algae in my tank (I have to head onto R2R and live vicariously through all of you). Here's an interesting video you may want to check out.

 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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The first thing I would do is figure out why your nutrients are bottoming out and address that. Otherwise this is going to be a "wash, rinse and repeat" kind of scenario. Other than coralline algae I can't really seem to grow much in the way of algae in my tank (I have to head onto R2R and live vicariously through all of you). Here's an interesting video you may want to check out.

Thank you, but I’m not exactly sure my nutrients bottoms out either time. Especially after watching that video. I was aware of low nutrients causing Dino’s so I purposely tried to maintain high nutrients to avoid Dino’s. After the bacteria got rodi of algae issues the first time I was running 3ppm nitrate and .02-.04 phos. I was trying to raise nitrates though because my salt mixes at 8.5 and the nitrates were too low for the spa and I was getting burnt tips. I started to over feed and I think what may have happened was the phos level got too high and unbalanced my nutrients. I’m not exactly sure what cause it though and I don’t believe my nutrients are draining other than right now because I’m dosing bacteria and like I said that’s because it’s practically the same as carbon dosing
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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When battling algaes in a reef tank many suggest to use a bacteria product such as MB7 to out compete the algae. Another form of action would be to rebalance the nutrients to the red field ratio and allow bacteria a chance to feed and grow to out compete the algae.
I may be wrong on this, but this is how I’m understanding it. I have used bacteria before to successfully out compete cyano/dinos, however my nutrient levels dropped very low. A month after stopping the bacteria the algae came right back and I believe it was from nutrients being low and out of balance.

Scenario 1: so is the idea to keep dosing nutrients to keep nutrients balanced while dosing bacteria? I am assuming in this scenario the bacteria levels will eventually grow higher than the algae levels and they can out compete the algae regardless of there being enough nutrients for both.

scenerio 2: dose the bacteria and not any nutrients so that the bacterias starve out the algaes of nutrients? The problem would then be unbalanced nutrients at the end and a possible relapse?

I can’t seem to find a clear answer and in short what I’m asking is. Do you dose nutrients while dosing mb7, because dosing mb7 is essentially carbon dosing and will lower nutrient levels.

thanks in advance!

I don't think that describes a method that would be successful. Balancing of nutrients makes no difference if there is enough of both N and P. Organisms just ignore anything more than what they require for uptake. IMO, the Redfield ratio has virtually zero utility in a reef tank.

Unless one of N or P is very low, heterotrophic bacterial growth will usually be limited by organic carbon, which is why organic carbon dosing works.
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

p1u5h13r4m24

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You mean raise alkalinity?
I was trying to raise nitrates because I was low nitrate and low phos and my dkh was 8.5. Rather than lowering dkh I was trying to raise nutrients to avoid burnt tips, and dinos from happening. Instead I think I just cause phosphates to raise by my overfeeding, my nitrates never really moved from 3ppm. So I’m saying the imbalance could have cause the algae out break rather than an imbalance
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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I don't think that describes a method that would be successful. Balancing of nutrients makes no difference if there is enough of both N and P. Organisms just ignore anything more than what they require for uptake. IMO, the Redfield ratio has virtually zero utility in a reef tank.

Unless one of N or P is very low, heterotrophic bacterial growth will usually be limited by organic carbon, which is why organic carbon dosing works.
So you’re suggesting to let the bacteria run its course, and possible even fuel it with organic carbon?

this has worked for me in the past before I learned about the red field ratio, but as soon as my algae issues were gone I stopped and started to over feed I think that’s what put me back to this position
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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I do not know that MB7 is going to be useful to deal with turf algae, but if it has worked for you there’s no reason to not try again.

what are the nitrate and phosphate levels now?
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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I do not know that MB7 is going to be useful to deal with turf algae, but if it has worked for you there’s no reason to not try again.

what are the nitrate and phosphate levels now?
The algae is a mixture of cyano, gha, and what I believe to be a form of Dinos. Phos read .02 and nitrate read around 6ppm.
I’m not sure if you remember my other thread, but another reason I’m worried about low nitrates is my alk is now up to 8.6. I lost a majority of my sps so it isn’t really dropping to compensate for the nitrate consumption.

I was only dosing 1ppm of nitrate a day, but I think I’m going to stop that as I think I’m just feeding the algae at this point and slowing my progress. I will notice algae receding a few hours after dosing mb7 and the next day after I dosing nitrate in the morning then coming home from work the algae is back in those spots.
 
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Erin1971Texas

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I don't think that describes a method that would be successful. Balancing of nutrients makes no difference if there is enough of both N and P. Organisms just ignore anything more than what they require for uptake. IMO, the Redfield ratio has virtually zero utility in a reef tank.

Unless one of N or P is very low, heterotrophic bacterial growth will usually be limited by organic carbon, which is why organic carbon dosing works.
I tend to agree that the Redfield ratio is not the best guide, but it always puzzles me that everyone who posts about it only mentions N and P. The first number in the RR is for Carbon (which, as you pointed out, is often what's missing/ needed for bacterial growth)
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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The algae is a mixture of cyano, gha, and what I believe to be a form of Dinos. Phos read .02 and nitrate read around 6ppm.
I’m not sure if you remember my other thread, but another reason I’m worried about low nitrates is my alk is now up to 8.6. I lost a majority of my sps so it isn’t really dropping to compensate for the nitrate consumption.

I was only dosing 1ppm of nitrate a day, but I think I’m going to stop that as I think I’m just feeding the algae at this point and slowing my progress. I will notice algae receding a few hours after dosing mb7 and the next day after I dosing nitrate in the morning then coming home from work the algae is back in those spots.

Ok, I can certainly see the potential for added bacteria to help with Dino’s and/or cyano.
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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I tend to agree that the Redfield ratio is not the best guide, but it always puzzles me that everyone who posts about it only mentions N and P. The first number in the RR is for Carbon (which, as you pointed out, is often what's missing/ needed for bacterial growth)

Yes, it could be helpful to know C, but one issue is that there are millions of different organics that will be present, from those easily metabolized to those that won’t be. So drawing conclusions about what will happen from total C alone might be challenging.
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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Ok, I can certainly see the potential for added bacteria to help with Dino’s and/or cyano.
I’ve ordered some Red Sea salt that is supposed to mix 7.5-8.0 dkh to bring my dkh down since I’m assuming my n and p may drop a bit lower as a result from the bacteria dosing. They have already dropped from about 10n to 5n and phos is around .02-.03 my dkh is currently 8.7 and that has came up from 8.5 as my Neophos I was dosing is being consumed by the bacteria. I will just continue with my regular feedings and keep an eye on phos and nitrate to make sure they don’t zero out. I’m not running my skimmer right now, hopefully this isn’t an issue.
 
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sixty_reefer

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I suspect that the bottled bacteria in this thread may be heterotrophic bacteria, the only problem is that is not going to kill the algae they are designed to remove ammonia and organics from the water and unfortunately I don’t think the will live long in our tanks.
For the Cyanobacteria you could look at a good media to remove organic from the water column, what colour is your water? Does it have a slightly yellow tint to it?
as for the algae you could try and secure filter pads to the rock or a similar reef safe material to block the light and stop photosynthesis. If you can keep something secure for 4 to 7 days they should just melt away. Unfortunately as they melt they will increase the organic carbon available to the tank. I suggest you deal with the Cyanobacteria first and then tackle the algae.
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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I suspect that the bottled bacteria in this thread may be heterotrophic bacteria, the only problem is that is not going to kill the algae they are designed to remove ammonia and organics from the water and unfortunately I don’t think the will live long in our tanks.
For the Cyanobacteria you could look at a good media to remove organic from the water column, what colour is your water? Does it have a slightly yellow tint to it?
as for the algae you could try and secure filter pads to the rock or a similar reef safe material to block the light and stop photosynthesis. If you can keep something secure for 4 to 7 days they should just melt away. Unfortunately as they melt they will increase the organic carbon available to the tank. I suggest you deal with the Cyanobacteria first and then tackle the algae.
Sorry if the post was misleading in anyway, but the algae I’m dealing with is green hair algae. The bacteria is cyano/ Dino’s, however it isn’t very extreme and it has been kind of under control as it isn’t the first time I’ve dealt with this. The bacteria I’m dosing is microbacter7 which I do believe is a diverse mix of heterotrophic bacteria. Brightwell dose say mb7 will work for the bacterias and they have another product called microbacter clear that is another bacteria that is supposed to work for the algaes. However I am seeing mb7 work for all 3 currently. But after I dose nitrates I feel they make a comeback. I feel that by me continuing to dose Neonitro to keep nutrients up I’m just feeding the cyano & gha. My main question was if I should just stop dosing nutrients and let mb7 do it’s work.
I don’t notice a yellow tint to my water though, Atleast not that I noticed and I’ve been testing daily.
 
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sixty_reefer

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Sorry if the post was misleading in anyway, but the algae I’m dealing with is green hair algae. The bacteria is cyano/ Dino’s, however it isn’t very extreme and it has been kind of under control as it isn’t the first time I’ve dealt with this. The bacteria I’m dosing is microbacter7 which I do believe is a diverse mix of heterotrophic bacteria. Brightwell dose say mb7 will work for the bacterias and they have another product called microbacter clear that is another bacteria that is supposed to work for the algaes. However I am seeing mb7 work for all 3 currently. But after I dose nitrates I feel they make a comeback. I feel that by me continuing to dose Neonitro to keep nutrients up I’m just feeding the cyano & gha. My main question was if I should just stop dosing nutrients and let mb7 do it’s work.
I don’t notice a yellow tint to my water though, Atleast not that I noticed and I’ve been testing daily.
I understood the question and that’s why I gave the above suggestion.
The bacteria is not eating the algae, heterotrophic bacteria dosing works beacause is reducing Doc and ammonium from the water column. I’m just suggesting that you could aid the process by adding a good quality medium to aid the absorption of dissolved organic matter that may be feeding the Cyanobacteria and possible the algae as it may be also producing ammonia that some algaes, like GHA will prefer more compared to nitrates.

i tough my water was clean to until I took this two pictures 48 hours apart. Same time of the day and same light conditions the difference is night and day. In my case I knew I had excess dissolved organics and during the last few weeks I’ve been working to remove it by just manipulating nutrients and some media to absorb the excess organics.



B61B3486-E8DA-407D-9F7B-658D3FDC124C.jpeg

FF4EC346-7061-4B5E-A45F-0624FDCC88EA.jpeg

The excess organics made my light more yellow also if I had GHA or other pest algae that could aid they’re growth also
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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I understood the question and that’s why I gave the above suggestion.
The bacteria is not eating the algae, heterotrophic bacteria dosing works beacause is reducing Doc and ammonium from the water column. I’m just suggesting that you could aid the process by adding a good quality medium to aid the absorption of dissolved organic matter that may be feeding the Cyanobacteria and possible the algae as it may be also producing ammonia that some algaes, like GHA will prefer more compared to nitrates.

i tough my water was clean to until I took this two pictures 48 hours apart. Same time of the day and same light conditions the difference is night and day. In my case I knew I had excess dissolved organics and during the last few weeks I’ve been working to remove it by just manipulating nutrients and some media to absorb the excess organics.



B61B3486-E8DA-407D-9F7B-658D3FDC124C.jpeg

FF4EC346-7061-4B5E-A45F-0624FDCC88EA.jpeg

The excess organics made my light more yellow also if I had GHA or other pest algae that could aid they’re growth also
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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I am aware with how mb7 bacteria works, however I never looked at it from a prospective of consuming DOC rather than P and N. Wouldn’t removing DOC also result in removing P and N? Also I would assume if I did have a yellow tint to the water and I decided high DOC was the cause my next step would be to use an activated carbon to try and lower DOC. But at that point I would also be starving the mb7 bacteria that I am adding?
 
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sixty_reefer

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I am aware with how mb7 bacteria works, however I never looked at it from a prospective of consuming DOC rather than P and N. Wouldn’t removing DOC also result in removing P and N?

If high Dissolved organics are removed trough a media the residual nitrates and phosphates should slow down in decreasing, only if Doc is removed by utilising bacteria the nitrates and phosphates will reduce as the need a C N P ratio of nutrients available to produce biomass.
Also I would assume if I did have a yellow tint to the water and I decided high DOC was the cause my next step would be to use an activated carbon to try and lower DOC. But at that point I would also be starving the mb7 bacteria that I am adding?
correct, but you would also be starving the Cyanobacteria (same for some dinoflagellates) as they need a high amount of Doc to thrive in comparison to N and P
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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If high Dissolved organics are removed trough a media the residual nitrates and phosphates should slow down in decreasing, only if Doc is removed by utilising bacteria the nitrates and phosphates will reduce as the need a C N P ratio of nutrients available to produce biomass.
I was hoping you would say that! You very well could be right as when I first got rid of these three (cyano,Dino, and gha) I wanted to raise nitrate because I was at 3ppm and phos was .01-.04 and I was afraid of bottoming out and getting Dino’s again. Also my alk was on the high side and I was getting burnt tips on sps. I started dosing a small amount of phyto 5ml/52g daily and doubled my feeding. This very well could have increased my DOC to the point of these coming back. That could be why as I stated before I didn’t believe either time I got these issues I ever bottoms out nutrients, I was over feeding to prevent bottoming out.
 
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