Dosing mb7 adding nutrients

p1u5h13r4m24

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When battling algaes in a reef tank many suggest to use a bacteria product such as MB7 to out compete the algae. Another form of action would be to rebalance the nutrients to the red field ratio and allow bacteria a chance to feed and grow to out compete the algae.
I may be wrong on this, but this is how I’m understanding it. I have used bacteria before to successfully out compete cyano/dinos, however my nutrient levels dropped very low. A month after stopping the bacteria the algae came right back and I believe it was from nutrients being low and out of balance.

Scenario 1: so is the idea to keep dosing nutrients to keep nutrients balanced while dosing bacteria? I am assuming in this scenario the bacteria levels will eventually grow higher than the algae levels and they can out compete the algae regardless of there being enough nutrients for both.

scenerio 2: dose the bacteria and not any nutrients so that the bacterias starve out the algaes of nutrients? The problem would then be unbalanced nutrients at the end and a possible relapse?

I can’t seem to find a clear answer and in short what I’m asking is. Do you dose nutrients while dosing mb7, because dosing mb7 is essentially carbon dosing and will lower nutrient levels.

thanks in advance!
 
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If high Dissolved organics are removed trough a media the residual nitrates and phosphates should slow down in decreasing, only if Doc is removed by utilising bacteria the nitrates and phosphates will reduce as the need a C N P ratio of nutrients available to produce biomass.

correct, but you would also be starving the Cyanobacteria (same for some dinoflagellates) as they need a high amount of Doc to thrive in comparison to N and P
Let’s assume I use activated carbon, to remove DOC. I continue to dose mb7 bacteria and now all the issues are cleared up. At some point now that my DOC are gone I will be come Carbon limited correct? The bacteria will probably consume more phosphates as isn’t that what most people see with carbon dosing is a decrease in phos? While I will start to see my nitrates start to climb. Assuming I continue to dose mb7.
Thanks!
 
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sixty_reefer

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I was hoping you would say that! You very well could be right as when I first got rid of these three (cyano,Dino, and gha) I wanted to raise nitrate because I was at 3ppm and phos was .01-.04 and I was afraid of bottoming out and getting Dino’s again. Also my alk was on the high side and I was getting burnt tips on sps. I started dosing a small amount of phyto 5ml/52g daily and doubled my feeding. This very well could have increased my DOC to the point of these coming back. That could be why as I stated before I didn’t believe either time I got these issues I ever bottoms out nutrients, I was over feeding to prevent bottoming out.
theoretical is possible, I am under the suspicion that we get most of this issues with Cyanobacteria, dinoflagellates and algaes going out of control in events were Doc becomes abundantly in our water column. Those events of high carbon can theoretically be created under several conditions one of them that is quite popular is wend nitrate or phosphates get depleted from a system, if there isn’t nitrates or phosphates available the heterotrophic bacteria won’t have enough N and P nutrients to carry on limiting Carbon in our tanks and by effect create a abundance in Doc.
Unfortunately we don’t have easy means to test for Doc if we had the means this connection would of have been made long ago.
 
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sixty_reefer

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Let’s assume I use activated carbon, to remove DOC. I continue to dose mb7 bacteria and now all the issues are cleared up. At some point now that my DOC are gone I will be come Carbon limited correct? The bacteria will probably consume more phosphates as isn’t that what most people see with carbon dosing is a decrease in phos? While I will start to see my nitrates start to climb. Assuming I continue to dose mb7.
Thanks!
If your tank becomes carbon limited, you should see nitrates and phosphates staying at the same residual parameter or starting to increase. Normally there is only a decrease in nitrates and phosphates if carbon is in abundance imo

I’ve wrote this thread a few days back that theoretically could help identify if you are becoming limited in carbon or if the availability of carbon is just right. We can’t test for Doc although I believe that the trends in nitrate and phosphates could give us clues to the availability of carbon in our tanks.

 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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If your tank becomes carbon limited, you should see nitrates and phosphates staying at the same residual parameter or starting to increase. Normally there is only a decrease in nitrates and phosphates if carbon is in abundance imo

I’ve wrote this thread a few days back that theoretically could help identify if you are becoming limited in carbon or if the availability of carbon is just right. We can’t test for Doc although I believe that the trends in nitrate and phosphates could give us clues to the availability of carbon in our tanks.

I believe I did see that thread before, I found it very interesting. but assuming I continued to dose mb7 bacteria after carbon is depleted and algae is gone I would think my phos would continue to go lower and my nitrates would not lower as fast or even rise. Considering when people carbon dose they usually run the risk of bottoming out phos before nitrate ever would become an issue. Even though I’m not adding carbon I’m still adding bacteria which will still lower n&p but from what I understand they favor P more. I am only stating this so that anyone who comes across this thread is aware. I do also plan on continuing to use mb7 once the algae is gone, but maybe it a much smaller dose.
Another reason why I ask is I’m there was someone with an identical system to mine. We had the same issues at the same time( the first time I had these issues and solved them with mb7), however they continued to dose mb7 and I stopped and it came back. Now their phos is bottoming out and nitrates keep climbing. I’m thinking this may be the reason
 
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If your tank becomes carbon limited, you should see nitrates and phosphates staying at the same residual parameter or starting to increase. Normally there is only a decrease in nitrates and phosphates if carbon is in abundance imo

I’ve wrote this thread a few days back that theoretically could help identify if you are becoming limited in carbon or if the availability of carbon is just right. We can’t test for Doc although I believe that the trends in nitrate and phosphates could give us clues to the availability of carbon in our tanks.

When I got home today I looked at the tank under whites and it definitely seemed to have a yellow tint to it. I decided to go with a small dose 2 tbs/50g of activated carbon in the filter sock.
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Let’s assume I use activated carbon, to remove DOC. I continue to dose mb7 bacteria and now all the issues are cleared up. At some point now that my DOC are gone I will be come Carbon limited correct? The bacteria will probably consume more phosphates as isn’t that what most people see with carbon dosing is a decrease in phos? While I will start to see my nitrates start to climb. Assuming I continue to dose mb7.
Thanks!

Tanks are typically already carbon limited for bacterial growth. That’s why organic carbon dosing drives bacterial growth.
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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The compounds readily removed by GAC are mostly ones bacteria really did not want to eat anyway, or they would be gone..
 
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sixty_reefer

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I believe I did see that thread before, I found it very interesting. but assuming I continued to dose mb7 bacteria after carbon is depleted and algae is gone I would think my phos would continue to go lower and my nitrates would not lower as fast or even rise. Considering when people carbon dose they usually run the risk of bottoming out phos before nitrate ever would become an issue. Even though I’m not adding carbon I’m still adding bacteria which will still lower n&p but from what I understand they favor P more. I am only stating this so that anyone who comes across this thread is aware.

it’s tricky, theoretical and if we look at charts of tanks that done N-Doc testing a balance tank should look like this.

976A6E0E-20F1-41F6-B170-E301EA92162E.jpeg


doc will always be more available than any other nutrients in a balanced tank as the top chart. By carry on dosing heterotrophic bacteria theoretically you could be replacing the existent normal bacteria for bacteria that is in a bottle.
although you not adding artificial carbon you would still have natural sources of carbon as result of feeding normally in fish waste or in the die of of algae that utilised inorganic carbon and photosynthesis to make biomass once they melt they will release organic carbon.
I do also plan on continuing to use mb7 once the algae is gone, but maybe it a much smaller dose.
Another reason why I ask is I’m there was someone with an identical system to mine. We had the same issues at the same time( the first time I had these issues and solved them with mb7), however they continued to dose mb7 and I stopped and it came back. Now their phos is bottoming out and nitrates keep climbing. I’m thinking this may be the reason

Imo once a issue is resolved I would aim for natural stability, if you look at the chart above he may well just be reducing the line of C and once he stopes using the product eventually the tank won’t be mature still.
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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Tanks are typically already carbon limited for bacterial growth. That’s why organic carbon dosing drives bacterial growth.
I’m sorry when I wrote that my understanding of carbon limited was that there was no carbon. I am now thinking it is the opposite as in carbon limited means an excess of carbon correct?
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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I’m sorry when I wrote that my understanding of carbon limited was that there was no carbon. I am now thinking it is the opposite as in carbon limited means an excess of carbon correct?

No, carbon limited means the amount of organic carbon is what limits the rate that bacteria can multiply. In other words they do not have enough to grow fast. Add a bunch of vodka and many bacteria grow faster because that limitation has been temporarily removed.

IMO, total organic measures don’t tell us much since some organics are only slowly metabolized.
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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No, carbon limited means the amount of organic carbon is what limits the rate that bacteria can multiply. In other words they do not have enough to grow fast. Add a bunch of vodka and many bacteria grow faster because that limitation has been temporarily removed.

IMO, total organic measures don’t tell us much since some organics are only slowly metabolized.
Thank you. I think this has been a pretty informative thread for anyone who stumbles across it. I am stopping the nitrate dosing. Added a low dose of actived carbon. And I will be continuing the mb7. I will give an update in a few days!
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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No, carbon limited means the amount of organic carbon is what limits the rate that bacteria can multiply. In other words they do not have enough to grow fast. Add a bunch of vodka and many bacteria grow faster because that limitation has been temporarily removed.

IMO, total organic measures don’t tell us much since some organics are only slowly metabolized.
Also, I haven’t ran my protein skimmer in probably 3 months since I was trying to raise nutrients. Do you think keeping it off would be a problem while trying to combat Dino’s/cyano given the circumstances?
 
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When battling algaes in a reef tank many suggest to use a bacteria product such as MB7 to out compete the algae. Another form of action would be to rebalance the nutrients to the red field ratio and allow bacteria a chance to feed and grow to out compete the algae.
I may be wrong on this, but this is how I’m understanding it. I have used bacteria before to successfully out compete cyano/dinos, however my nutrient levels dropped very low. A month after stopping the bacteria the algae came right back and I believe it was from nutrients being low and out of balance.

Scenario 1: so is the idea to keep dosing nutrients to keep nutrients balanced while dosing bacteria? I am assuming in this scenario the bacteria levels will eventually grow higher than the algae levels and they can out compete the algae regardless of there being enough nutrients for both.

scenerio 2: dose the bacteria and not any nutrients so that the bacterias starve out the algaes of nutrients? The problem would then be unbalanced nutrients at the end and a possible relapse?

I can’t seem to find a clear answer and in short what I’m asking is. Do you dose nutrients while dosing mb7, because dosing mb7 is essentially carbon dosing and will lower nutrient levels.

thanks in advance!
I feel your two scenarios show why dosing bacteria to control algae might not be a valid approach. Using the Redfield ratio in nutrient management seems like internet nonsense.
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Thank you. I think this has been a pretty informative thread for anyone who stumbles across it. I am stopping the nitrate dosing. Added a low dose of actived carbon. And I will be continuing the mb7. I will give an update in a few days!

Just to be sure everyone understands, the carbon in activated carbon (GAC) is essentially inert in a reef aquarium and is not the type of carbon referred to when someone says carbon limited.

Carbon limited usually refers to organic molecules that bacteria eat (they contain carbon too), but in some situations it might also mean CO2 limiting for photosynthetic organisms.
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Also, I haven’t ran my protein skimmer in probably 3 months since I was trying to raise nutrients. Do you think keeping it off would be a problem while trying to combat Dino’s/cyano given the circumstances?

Reduced organics is one of my recommendations for cyano, so skimmer off is not optimal, IMO.
 
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sixty_reefer

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in resume this would be a good plan for Cyanobacteria and and possibly pest algae

• Gac will remove organics from the water column that cause the yellow and change light spectrum, this can affect algae growth

• Cleaning the sand bed to remove accumulation of organics

• Removing detritus from the rocks by blasting them

• Increasing heterotrophic bacteria by MB7 or adding nitrogen to strengthen the existing bacteria

• Removing mats of Cyanobacteria to reduce they’re population.

• protein skimmer on, to remove extra organics

• Keep a eye open on nutrient to not let them bottom out.

all the above would contribute to the reduction of Doc and ammonia that can affect algaes and Cyanobacteria.
 
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p1u5h13r4m24

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Reduced organics is one of my recommendations for cyano, so skimmer off is not optimal, IMO.
Thanks again gentlemen! I’ve been reefing on and off for a very long time. I’ve had reef with sps do great for a year and end up crashing because I never full understood how everything works. Can’t thank use enough for the help!
 
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in resume this would be a good plan for Cyanobacteria and and possibly pest algae

• Gac will remove organics from the water column that cause the yellow and change light spectrum, this can affect algae growth

• Cleaning the sand bed to remove accumulation of organics

• Removing detritus from the rocks by blasting them

• Increasing heterotrophic bacteria by MB7 or adding nitrogen to strengthen the existing bacteria

• Removing mats of Cyanobacteria to reduce they’re population.

• protein skimmer on, to remove extra organics

• Keep a eye open on nutrient to not let them bottom out.

all the above would contribute to the reduction of Doc and ammonia that can affect algaes and Cyanobacteria.
Thank you so much for the help! Do you think that an abundance of DOC or just DO could be the reason why when I dosed the heterotrophic bacteria the I seen negative effects. For example I lost an anthia, and a lot of my sps had the flesh stripped right off the skeleton. I also underdosed by half. I always try to do a less dose than the instructions say with anything. I found it strange because the first time I got cyano/dinos I used heterotrophic bacteria, but my tank was fairly new and I was running a skimmer prior to using the bacteria. The second time I got cyano and Dino’s I was trying to increase nutrients so I didn’t run my skimmer for about 4 months. I just found it strange I had no negative effects from the heterotrophic bacteria the first time and the second time It seemed to have negative effects. I did start the skimmer and allowed it to drain back into the sump when the Anthias died because I read the bacteria could starve the tank of oxygen. I found that rather than doing 5ml once a week I can do 1.5ml each day with no negative effects
 
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sixty_reefer

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Thank you so much for the help! Do you think that an abundance of DOC or just DO could be the reason why when I dosed the heterotrophic bacteria the I seen negative effects. For example I lost an anthia, and a lot of my sps had the flesh stripped right off the skeleton. I also underdosed by half. I always try to do a less dose than the instructions say with anything. I found it strange because the first time I got cyano/dinos I used heterotrophic bacteria, but my tank was fairly new and I was running a skimmer prior to using the bacteria. The second time I got cyano and Dino’s I was trying to increase nutrients so I didn’t run my skimmer for about 4 months. I just found it strange I had no negative effects from the heterotrophic bacteria the first time and the second time It seemed to have negative effects. I did start the skimmer and allowed it to drain back into the sump when the Anthias died because I read the bacteria could starve the tank of oxygen. I found that rather than doing 5ml once a week I can do 1.5ml each day with no negative effects
It would be hard for me to tell you, I can only see it affecting coral if the nutrients were to have a rapid fluctuation or if it where to fully depleted the nutrients available in the tank. With coral is difficult as there is a vast amount of parameters fluctuations that can affect them, not just nutrients.
Regarding the fish could of been again several different factors happening, would be wrong from my side to speculate without further info.
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Thank you so much for the help! Do you think that an abundance of DOC or just DO could be the reason why when I dosed the heterotrophic bacteria the I seen negative effects. For example I lost an anthia, and a lot of my sps had the flesh stripped right off the skeleton.

DO? Dissolved oxygen?
 
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