sixty_reefer

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The third nutrient is my theoretical thinking on nutrients and understanding of aquarium stability and balance.



The third nutrient or Carbon is a nutrient that not often talked about and little is known of its function and effects to the other Nutrients in reef aquaria, not much is know to what effects the abundance or limitation of carbon could do to our aquariums inhabitants.


In this thread I intend to share my view on how all nutrients are connected and influenced by each others in a way that can affect the over all reef aquarium stability and balance.



In my thinking, at any point in time a balance reef aquarium would have Tree nutrient present at all times.



Carbon

Nitrogen

Phosphates



Many times seen as C : N : P



The presence of this three building blocks Nutrient is what allows our reef aquariums to sustain life in addition with trace and other elements like Calcium, Alkalinity and Magnesium.

The availability of C : N : P in a aquarium is much different from the residual Nutrients that we can test for, we can analyse the water for residual nitrates and phosphates although we can’t analyse the water for carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus availability in our aquariums. The reason why is that the availability of C : N : P it’s in is raw many forms like fish waste, uneaten food, macro and micro algae’s die off etc..

Only after all have been transformed and processed by our microbes and tank inhabitants we can test for what’s not been used by our reef aquaria organism, this comes in the form of residual nitrates and residual phosphates also referred in the hobby as parameters.

Meaning that what we test daily is what our reef aquariums are not utilising, this could be the reason why we all can have different ranges of residual parameters and still achieve similar end results, I personally find them as not important as the availability of C : N : P in my opinion.



How I understand the limitations in C : N : P Availability of nutrients, limitations means if one of the nutrients is absent.



P limits N and C

That may cause N and C to be in abundance



N limits C

That may cause C to be in abundance



How do I understand abundance in C : N : P availability of nutrients, abundance means if one of the nutrients is in excess



C abundance

May cause N and P to be limited



C and N abundance

May cause P to be limited



Knowing the basics of abundance and limitations we may be able to interpret the limitations and abundance of those nutrients using our residual parameters to have a vague idea of what’s happening at the C : N : P availability of nutrients level.



Residual of phosphates in connection to P



Phosphates decreasing

It may mean P is starting to be less available



Phosphates at zero

It may Mean that P may not be available in the aquarium



Phosphates increasing

It may Mean P is starting to build up in our aquariums



Residual of Nitrates in connection to N



Nitrates decreasing

It may mean N is starting to be less available



Nitrates at Zero

It may mean that N is not available in the aquarium



Nitrates increasing

It may mean N is starting to build up in our aquariums



With the above theoretical information I believe it’s possible to have a more detailed understanding of the word “balanced” and “stable” allowing the end user to understand what’s happening in a aquarium on the nutrient level that can’t be tested for at present time.



The information above can avoid many to do common mistakes and avoid many from complete disaster.
Anecdotally and in my opinion, events were carbon becomes in abundance could be the root cause for dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria to bloom in our reef aquariums, events of abundance of carbon could theoretically allow for more dissolved co2 to be in abundance and allow pest algae to grow out of control.

The reason I believe not all of us are experiencing negative effects from high carbon abundance events, may simply be that not all aquariums have the algae spores, dinoflagellates cells or Cyanobacteria present.



I strongly believe that with the above theoretical thinking, I can now see the meaning of stability and balance with a different understanding of how nutrients could be working for me and if I loose my balance I can have a vague idea how I lost it and how I could regain it.
I now have a vague idea that I shouldn’t change my habits wend I’m feeding my tank as that could cause me to lose the balance.
I now know that I shouldn’t deprive my tank from nutrients if I was trying to remove a undesirable pest algae from my aquarium.
I now know that I should take it slow if doing any major changes to my aquarium nutritional needs.
I now know that if my aquarium nutrients are indicating a decrease in N or P that I need to work to bring them back up to avoid a possible high C event.
I now know that residual parameters are just a number and I should let my tank do it’s thing as long as they are in a acceptable range.



I hope that the future may be more bright and that we may eventually understand nutrition on a different level.
 
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sixty_reefer

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Far from a article, jus my thinking and few observations that end up with more questions
 
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I have now been contemplating for a few weeks to utilise my above thinking in a way that could be beneficial for my personal reef, with my question on why bad things happen in a event of high carbon abundance am now set on a new venture to try and identify what would happen in a system that is abundant in nitrogen.
for the following venture I have purchased some artificial source of nitrogen and plumed it to my dosed, I am using the same concept of the continuous phytoplankton reactor although in this case I am selecting the nutrients I believe that could be beneficial to me.

method:
Artificial nitrogen source dosed 12 times a day 2 hours apart.

week one
1 ml per dose or 12ml per day equivalent to 1.2 ppm of nitrates

week two
2ml per dose or 24ml per day equivalent to 2.4 ppm of nitrates

week three
3ml per dose or 36ml per day equivalent to 3.6 ppm of nitrates

Observation:
So far my attempt to increase the nitrogen line of availability of nutrients have been inconclusive, my residual nitrates are still 5ppm stable even after a daily dose of 3.6 ppm nitrates according the nitrogen manufacturers, phosphates are increases steadily week by week, the increase of phosphates is expected.
 
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One of the benefits I have come across in this initial 3 weeks dosing are becoming similar to the initial phytoplankton dosing, glass maintenance has reduced drastically and it’s now dominated by a translucent film instead of the usual green and brown algae, I am also seeing less build up of detritus in the tank unfortunately I don’t have a protein skimmer to check if there is less skim being produced that was one of the interesting observations during the phytoplankton continuous dosing.
 

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I have now been contemplating for a few weeks to utilise my above thinking in a way that could be beneficial for my personal reef, with my question on why bad things happen in a event of high carbon abundance am now set on a new venture to try and identify what would happen in a system that is abundant in nitrogen.
for the following venture I have purchased some artificial source of nitrogen and plumed it to my dosed, I am using the same concept of the continuous phytoplankton reactor although in this case I am selecting the nutrients I believe that could be beneficial to me.

method:
Artificial nitrogen source dosed 12 times a day 2 hours apart.

week one
1 ml per dose or 12ml per day equivalent to 1.2 ppm of nitrates

week two
2ml per dose or 24ml per day equivalent to 2.4 ppm of nitrates

week three
3ml per dose or 36ml per day equivalent to 3.6 ppm of nitrates

Observation:
So far my attempt to increase the nitrogen line of availability of nutrients have been inconclusive, my residual nitrates are still 5ppm stable even after a daily dose of 3.6 ppm nitrates according the nitrogen manufacturers, phosphates are increases steadily week by week, the increase of phosphates is expected.
Do you think P is rising because C is limited in your nitrogen dosing test?
 
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Do you think P is rising because C is limited in your nitrogen dosing test?
At the moment P could be rising due to C and N starting to became less available although I am increasing the availability of Nitrogen the residual nitrates are still at 5 ppm they haven’t moved since I started the test
 

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At the moment P could be rising due to C and N starting to became less available although I am increasing the availability of Nitrogen the residual nitrates are still at 5 ppm they haven’t moved since I started the test
Interesting, sounds possible that N could be limited due to the consumption rate or demand.
 

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Ime when you limit P, N will rise and vise versa. I wish we could test for C. I’d really like to know more how C helps balance the two. It reminds me of magnesium’s role between Alk and Calc
 
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Interesting, sounds possible that N could be limited due to the consumption rate or demand.
I think you may be on to something, as I first started dosing I was under the impression that I should se nitrates increasing accordingly the amount of nitrogen added at the moment it seems that as long as I give enough time for the bacteria to multiply between dose increases I could reach a very high dose of nitrogen wile still keeping my residual nitrates stable.
 
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Ime when you limit P, N will rise and vise versa. I wish we could test for C. I’d really like to know more how C helps balance the two. It reminds me of magnesium’s role between Alk and Calc
I think I just found a flaw in my above opening statement, although they stay correct, they only work and are essential in most reefs that now have heterotrophic bacteria as a dominant species. For rare situations were nitrifying bacteria is still responsible for a big part in the nitrogen cycle some limitations laws could be different, for example P would only limit C and not N.
 

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I think I just found a flaw in my above opening statement, although they stay correct, they only work and are essential in most reefs that now have heterotrophic bacteria as a dominant species. For rare situations were nitrifying bacteria is still responsible for a big part in the nitrogen cycle some limitations laws could be different, for example P would only limit C and not N.
Rabbit hole gets deeper when we add bacteria to the mix
 
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Rabbit hole gets deeper when we add bacteria to the mix
Tell me about it :p

not many reefs today got enough nitrifying bacteria to make the difference, I just tough is worth mentioning just to keep things more confusing ;)

you mentioned testing for carbon earlier have you ever considered a N-Doc testing ATI and Triton got methods that go trough the same theory as in the main text they like me just don’t give much attention to the nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria as they not In enough numbers in most reefs to make a difference.
 

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Tell me about it :p

not many reefs today got enough nitrifying bacteria to make the difference, I just tough is worth mentioning just to keep things more confusing ;)

you mentioned testing for carbon earlier have you ever considered a N-Doc testing ATI and Triton got methods that go trough the same theory as in the main text they like me just don’t give much attention to the nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria as they not In enough numbers in most reefs to make a difference.
I have heard about there carbon source testing and find it very interesting. I would want to test more frequently then my budget would allow. I’m more curious about fluctuations, to track the highs and lows. I hope they’re getting a ton of good research from everyone’s samples and methods of carbon dosing
 
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I have heard about there carbon source testing and find it very interesting. I would want to test more frequently then my budget would allow. I’m more curious about fluctuations, to track the highs and lows. I hope they’re getting a ton of good research from everyone’s samples and methods of carbon dosing
The fluctuations are normal as long as they don’t move to much up or down and under normal situations it shouldn’t require any action, we just need to worry and take action if N or P start to get near zero or if N and P start to go up quickly.
 

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The fluctuations are normal as long as they don’t move to much up or down and under normal situations it shouldn’t require any action, we just need to worry and take action if N or P start to get near zero or if N and P start to go up quickly.
I think a lot of us go through changes or directions in nutrients over time. I’ve learned the hard way that N climbs when P is limited. I’ve monitored P shoot up and down without N skipping a beat. More recently I’ve seen P quadruple resulting in N decreased by 1/3. I’ve gone from high N to medium to very low(over the years). All of which grew coral but only when P and C were in line or elevated respectively. It’s my assumption from this, that a lot plays into C. A better understanding could help us understand why some do well in elevated nutrient tanks. Having a hobby grade C test kit could potentially help a lot of us identify coral discomfort.

I see a lot of post people asking what’s wrong with my coral, then the parameters get listed and people make their assumptions. People say N and P can not bottom out, which I agree but again we are measuring what the tank did not consume. If you’ve mastered the tanks demand and forms of supplementation then those numbers (n/p @0) could in theory prove so. Nothing wrong with a clean plate so long as you don’t get too hungry before the next one.
 

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